If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Isaiah wrote:

18 For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. (Isaiah 45:18)

"The meek shall inherit the earth", remember? (Matthew 5:5)

When I was growing up a Catholic and the priests blabbed to me about heaven, I never understood what was so good about floating on a cloud or going to choir practice or whatever they couldn't explain anyway.

Beside, in order to get to heaven, you were supposed to die first. Bummer!

Really, earth is a pretty neat place, don't you think?

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Momma Angel wrote:

You say the Bible does refute the Bible. I say it does not.

So, we have a difference of opinion. I am content in my beliefs. Frank is positive he is right.

Frank is positive he is right for the simple reason that he is only making claims about what is clearly written in the Bible.

You on the other hand made broad sweeping claims that "When one really begins to read and study the Bible it becomes clear that God is not any different from the Old Testament to the New Testament." Yet when asked to back that nonsensical statement up, you refuse. That itself is very telling. The few scriptural references that you provided did not support the claim.

Momma Angel wrote:

So, I ask once again. Why are you pushing it? I am not trying to force my beliefs or whatever you want to call them" on you?

The Devil made me do it...I don't like the smell of manure...this is a discussion forum...I like to keep the record straight...take your pick.

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Life is just one goddam thing after another and death is a cabaret.

-Fran Lebowitz

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Mesquite, to you the scriptures did not back it up. To me they did. Let's call it a draw.

To be honest with you, it was one of those questions that I get how the conflict is resolved, but I just can't seem to find the right words to make it make sense for someone else. Do you see what I am trying to say? I researched that answer. I read it quite a few times and I looked up the scriptures provided. To me, it makes perfect sense. But, I have a different opinion than either you or Frank do. Rats! I just don't know how to make that make sense. I have to apologize for that. The last thing I want to do is confuse anyone (especially me Laughing

)

All I can tell you is that I believe God is a loving, forgiving, all powerful God. Perhaps Neologist can explain to you and Frank the conflict of the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament.

It's not that I refuse to back up the statement, I just don't know how to put it into words. I wish I could more than you know.

Oh yeah, and Lightwizard, I will tell you just like I told Frank, God's last name is not dam! And who the heck is Fran Lebowitz? (Momma Angel has no clue to that one.)

So, Neologist, can you help me out here? Can you explain how to resolve the conflict of God of the Old Testament and God of the New Testament? Help! Please help!

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Ok, I have to say this. I am surprised that no one has made fun of my Momma Angel ID (especially since someone, can't remember who it was, told me that saying Judgement is God's place and not mine, is me saying "Look how humble I am.) Figured the angel thingy would have brought about comments along those lines.

But, I am especially grateful it hasn't! LOL

Momma Angel founded the Care Angel Network. That's why I am Momma Angel.

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neologist wrote:

Frank, your post is simply a regurgitation of the claptrap invented by the priesthood through the centuries in order to keep the masses in fear.

Yeah....well that is what religion is all about....keeping you sheep (a very apt description) in fear.

Bottom line, though, is that I was talking about what Augustine and Aquinas taught. And they did. If you want to call it claptrap...go for it. I think the entire shooting match is nothing more than bullshyt.

Glad your obvious dislike of "the priesthood" allows you to see at least some of the bullshyt.

Quote:

The teachings of immortal soul and fiery torment originated with the religions of Babylon, the place where 'passing children through the fire' was typical religious practice.

Most of the crap that is Christianity was borrowed from the same sources. Glad you are able to see that in some parts...at least the parts where it is convenient for you to open your eyes. Too bad about the fear and hypocrisy that blinds you to the remainder.

Quote:

There simply is no biblical basis for the teaching.

You are sure of that?

Quote:

NOTE TO THE ATHEISTS AND AGNOSTICS HERE IN THIS THREAD: I've already posted the proof of this several times and will gladly do it again.

Ahhh...you are sure.

And in a particularly silly moment of stupidity you now say that you are going to prove that something is not in the Bible.

This I am going to enjoy.

DO IT!

PROVE that there is no Biblical basis for the teaching.

Quote:

Once again it is well to post some wisdom from another age:

Denis Diderot wrote:
Mankind will never truly be free until the last king has been strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

I love when you people feed on each other!

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Amigo wrote:

You should check this freud thing out momma.Freud...... the atheist god

I got darwin and freud mixed up

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Darwin was religious -- he just didn't buy into the story of Genesis and it is a story. The fable of Genesis as well as Noah's flood appears in many different mythologies. Momma Angel does not want to do the research as her eye's might be opened and she will make some rational sense. Too bad, but it is still true that ignorance is bliss.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Glad your obvious dislike of "the priesthood" allows you to see at least some of the bullshyt. . .
Most of the crap that is Christianity was borrowed from the same sources. Glad you are able to see that in some parts...at least the parts where it is convenient for you to open your eyes. Too bad about the fear and hypocrisy that blinds you to the remainder. . .

It's too bad that this crap and fear and hypocrisy has blinded you to the fact that God does, in fact, exist and we have a responsibility toward Him. In that respect, the original liar has succeeded.

Frank quoting neologist wrote:

There simply is no biblical basis for the teaching.

Frank Apisa wrote:

You are sure of that? . . .
And in a particularly silly moment of stupidity you now say that you are going to prove that something is not in the Bible.

This I am going to enjoy.

DO IT!

PROVE that there is no Biblical basis for the teaching.

You know the bible real well, Frank, so I don't have to cite the passages, right?
Animals are souls.
Adam was a soul; He was not given a soul.
The soul that sins will die.
The wage sin pays is death. (Nothing more, nothing less)
The dead are unconscious.

Words translated as 'hell'
Sheol = mankind's common grave - rendered 'hades' by the septuagint translators.
Hades= the grave.
Gehenna = the valley of Hinnom where fires were kept burning constantly by the addition of sulphur in order to burn garbage, dead animals, even criminals.
Tartarus = A condition of restraint imposed on the disobedient angels of Noah's day.

You are so blinded by your perception of the OT God, you readily accept the BS and More of the Same Piled higher and Deeper by the religious elite, though it is simply an extension of the lie.

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Ok, where do I start?

Frank: Whatever! If God told you the truth Himself, first, you wouldn't believe it was Him and then you'd argue (IMO) with Him..

Lightwizard: Darwin was religious? Ok, Don't know the man so I can't refute that. The Books of the Bible are not mythical. And, Momma Angel does do research.

I was doing research on Freud and came across the statement:

Unfortunately, Freud had a penchant for rejecting people who did not totally agree with him.

Now, is that not exactly what Christians have been accused of doing? I am sooooo confused! Laughing

So, so far, I have gathered this from previous posts:

1) You can use the Bible to refute that the Bible is true, even though you you don't believe, guess, estimate, know (wahtever) that it is true, as valid support for supporting your argument. Because you believe, know, guess, estimate, (whatever) that the God Old Testament God is is murderous, vindictive, barbaric, etc., (must be or you wouldn't use it to validate) but the God in the New Testament is not truth because He's not killing or striking down people? Again! I am soooooooooooo confused. For one to use research of any type, I believe one must have at least some foundation of belief, trust, faith, guess, estimate, that the research source is correct, true, etc.

2) Darwin was right about his theory of evolution and if you didn't agree with him he rejected you. I say God is right and Christians are accused of rejecting you like Darwin did.

Now, something just doesn't add up to me there.

Ok, and Lightwizard, you obviously have not been keeping up with the news. Haven't you heard they are excavating the site where Noah's ark rests? Or, did they make that up too?

No problem, Amigo. Your heart was in the right place.

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neologist wrote:

You know the bible real well, Frank, so I don't have to cite the passages, right?
Animals are souls.
Adam was a soul; He was not given a soul.
The soul that sins will die.
The wage sin pays is death. (Nothing more, nothing less)
The dead are unconscious.

Words translated as 'hell'
Sheol = mankind's common grave - rendered 'hades' by the septuagint translators.
Hades= the grave.
Gehenna = the valley of Hinnom where fires were kept burning constantly by the addition of sulphur in order to burn garbage, dead animals, even criminals.
Tartarus = A condition of restraint imposed on the disobedient angels of Noah's day.

You are so blinded by your perception of the OT God, you readily accept the BS and More of the Same Piled higher and Deeper by the religious elite, though it is simply an extension of the lie.

AND THIS YOU OFFER AS PROOF THAT there is no biblical basis for the notion of Hell.

Good grief!

This is so laughable that I am astounded.

This is not proof of anything...let alone proof of what you intended to prove.

Learn what a proof is....then attempt to offer one.

Egad. Is this the depths to which defenders of faith have fallen!

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Momma Angel wrote:

Ok, where do I start?

Frank: Whatever! If God told you the truth Himself, first, you wouldn't believe it was Him and then you'd argue (IMO) with Him..

MY GUESS: You do not even know if there is a God...so any speculation on what a God would or would not tell me....and what my reaction would be is preposterous.

Quote:

1) You can use the Bible to refute that the Bible is true, even though you you don't believe, guess, estimate, know (wahtever) that it is true, as valid support for supporting your argument. Because you believe, know, guess, estimate, (whatever) that the God Old Testament God is is murderous, vindictive, barbaric, etc., (must be or you wouldn't use it to validate) but the God in the New Testament is not truth because He's not killing or striking down people? Again! I am soooooooooooo confused. For one to use research of any type, I believe one must have at least some foundation of belief, trust, faith, guess, estimate, that the research source is correct, true, etc.

What is the matter with you, MA?

Can't you think?

If I say there is a person called Adam in the first book of the Bible...just how in Hell could I possibly show that is so without using the Bible.

One does not have to "believe" or guess or estimate anything about the book in order to talk about what is in it.

Do you honestly not understand that....or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:
You know the bible real well, Frank, so I don't have to cite the passages, right?
Animals are souls.
Adam was a soul; He was not given a soul.
The soul that sins will die.
The wage sin pays is death. (Nothing more, nothing less)
The dead are unconscious.

Words translated as 'hell'
Sheol = mankind's common grave - rendered 'hades' by the septuagint translators.
Hades= the grave.
Gehenna = the valley of Hinnom where fires were kept burning constantly by the addition of sulphur in order to burn garbage, dead animals, even criminals.
Tartarus = A condition of restraint imposed on the disobedient angels of Noah's day.

You are so blinded by your perception of the OT God, you readily accept the BS and More of the Same Piled higher and Deeper by the religious elite, though it is simply an extension of the lie.

AND THIS YOU OFFER AS PROOF THAT there is no biblical basis for the notion of Hell.

Good grief!

This is so laughable that I am astounded.

This is not proof of anything...let alone proof of what you intended to prove.

Learn what a proof is....then attempt to offer one.

Egad. Is this the depths to which defenders of faith have fallen!

Frank, you disappoint me. If the dead are not conscious, how can there be a hell?

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
neologist wrote:
You know the bible real well, Frank, so I don't have to cite the passages, right?
Animals are souls.
Adam was a soul; He was not given a soul.
The soul that sins will die.
The wage sin pays is death. (Nothing more, nothing less)
The dead are unconscious.

Words translated as 'hell'
Sheol = mankind's common grave - rendered 'hades' by the septuagint translators.
Hades= the grave.
Gehenna = the valley of Hinnom where fires were kept burning constantly by the addition of sulphur in order to burn garbage, dead animals, even criminals.
Tartarus = A condition of restraint imposed on the disobedient angels of Noah's day.

You are so blinded by your perception of the OT God, you readily accept the BS and More of the Same Piled higher and Deeper by the religious elite, though it is simply an extension of the lie.

AND THIS YOU OFFER AS PROOF THAT there is no biblical basis for the notion of Hell.

Good grief!

This is so laughable that I am astounded.

This is not proof of anything...let alone proof of what you intended to prove.

Learn what a proof is....then attempt to offer one.

Egad. Is this the depths to which defenders of faith have fallen!
Frank, you disappoint me. If the dead are not conscious, how can there be a hell?

You asserted that you could PROVE that there is no biblical basis for the notion of Hell.

You have merely regurgitated a bunch of nonsense put forth by biblical illiterates in the Jehovah Witnesses and a few other Seventh Day Adventist type sects.

In any case, attempting to prove a negative....while not impossible....is extremely difficult. You have not even come close to proving your point...although I expect you are much, much too hard-headed ever to acknowledge that.

I laugh at this purported "proof"....and any one with a sense of logic and a sense of humor would do the same.

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A link please to the excavation of the site of Noah's ark. You apparantly will believe anything in your dream world.

Where is the Bible in all libraries?

Under Mythology.

Darwin never rejected anyone. You've never read "Origin of the Species," have you. You're still suffering from reprehensible misconceptions that are reserved for the terminally ignorant. You make broad statement that only can remotely be excused 'cause you're a broad.

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(And I don't mean you're taking a trip...well, maybe on a trip).

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Here is page one of three pages reflecting comments in the Bible about Hell.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/h/1121960894-8709.html

While some may require a stretch...several of them certainly provide some biblical basis for the "belief" in Hell.

To suggest, as Neo has, that there is NO biblical basis for the "belief"....is so silly, it really merits no response.

But I enjoy this kind of thing....so I'm gonna do so anyway.

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Ok, now I am obtuse. I will add that to my list. I appreciate the fact you are using words I understand.

It's just so funny that when you don't agree with what someone says, especially when they say (IMO) or this is what "I" believe, you call them obtuse?

But, when someone does not agree with you, you reject outright their thoughts and beliefs because you "know that you are right and they are wrong." So, now we can add Darwin to that list along with Frank, God, Jesus Christ (meant as jest! Your comments lead me to the conclusion. And, you are the one that said you know you are right and I am wrong.) Where's the kissey face on these Emoticons? Laughing

And Frank if you can say there is no God, I can say there is a God. You just don't like it and that's sad for you. To not think there is something out there greater than man is a pretty sad statement, I'd say. Man is self-destructing and destroying everything. But, you believe the Christians are responsible for that, right?

And let me try to explain my puzzlement over your using the Bible to refute the Bible ok? Now, mind you, and I WANT EVERYONE TO UNDERSTAND THIS, this is what it "sounds" like to me. Ok?

You "know" the sky is red. You read in this book that the sky is blue. Later in the book the sky is now blue with white polka dots. So, you just "know" the sky is red remember? So, now you say, look, in this book, it says in one place the sky is blue and in another place in the book it says the sky is blue with white polka dots. Now, to me just because the book has added another facet of the sky, I still believe the sky is blue but it is also blue with white polka dots.But, because this facet was not introduced in the first part of the book, you reject the white polka dots part because you "know" the sky is red anyway.

Confusing? Well, how the heck do you think I feel. In the first place you don't even believe the sky is blue so why the heck argue the point?

That is what I mean by using the Bible to refute the Bible. You call it obtuse or whatever the heck you want. THAT'S JUST WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE TO ME IN THE SIMPLEST OF TERMS!

So Frank, face it, the clouds are the white polka dots! Laughing

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Lightwizard,

Oh, now I get it! You get to choose what you believe and what you don't and that makes you right and I get to choose what I believe and what I don't but that makes me wrong! I am so glad you cleared that up for me!

Because one man writes that Darwin had a penchant for rejecting anyone who didn't completely agree with him and one man does not say it, neither makes it true nor false. Each had their own opinion. You choose to believe he didn't do it, I choose to believe he did. But, like I said, you are right and I am wrong.

And because the Bible is placed under mythology on the Library Shelf because some man arranged it that way, you believe it is myth and I believe it is not. Once again, gee my mistake, I keep forgetting that you get to choose what you believe because it makes you right and what I choose makes me wrong! I just am going to have to practice on that one.

And oh yeah! A link? Oh, very, very funny. Like you believe everything on the internet?

And Neo, baby, I am a laughing like you wouldn't believe. I love having a simple mind that can grasp the humorous in almost any given situation.

Who Loves Ya Baby!

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Here is page one of three pages reflecting comments in the Bible about Hell.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/h/1121960894-8709.html

While some may require a stretch...several of them certainly provide some biblical basis for the "belief" in Hell.

To suggest, as Neo has, that there is NO biblical basis for the "belief"....is so silly, it really merits no response.

But I enjoy this kind of thing....so I'm gonna do so anyway.

So, I'm supposed to believe the very ones who have a vested interest in maintaining the fear you so pompously attribute to me?
All you have done is repeat what they say.

All I have done is identify a few places where the bible shows them to be wrong. Once again, you are so determined to be right, you will use the arguments of those you know to be liars.

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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