If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

By the way, Kicky....KICKY....

...if you get back here....

...I'm gonna be in town tomorrow.

More than likely I'll get together with Joe for a burger....and then over to the Frying Pan.

You have both our numbers....and Bernie's also.

Give a call.

Have a brewski with us.

Watch the sun set over beautiful New Jersey.

Hawk the dynamite chicks at happy hour.

Whatever!

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Frank,

I took the verses straight from the Bible about God's name. Still, you have to be right and call it wrong.

You are not going to make me angry by calling me names.

If you do not believe the things I point out in the Bible, why do you believe the things you point out? It seems like having your cake and eating it too. If you choose to believe God is a murderous, hateful, etc., God, then fine Frank. Believe that. Just don't tell me that the scripture I point out to you where He is loving and forgiving is wrong.

What is so illogical about that? You show me where God has killed. I show you where God shows love. You believe what you point out but not what I point out.

I find your attitude the most accusatory. Many have said this is a disucssion, an exchanging of ideas, but you flat out admit you know you are not wrong. Frank says it, that settles it?

And I especially find your attitude of you being smarter than anyone else as extremely pompous. But, that is my opinion. Argue what you will, but I don't recall anything in the guidelines that state we all have to be experts at this. Remember Frank, at one time, you were an amateur also. Now that you are not an amateur, you perhaps have wisdom to impart, but I feel the attitude you display distracts from that wisdom.

And you are now at the top of my prayer list. I still love ya!

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Frank Apisa wrote:

By the way, Kicky....KICKY....

...if you get back here....

...I'm gonna be in town tomorrow.

More than likely I'll get together with Joe for a burger....and then over to the Frying Pan.

You have both our numbers....and Bernie's also.

Give a call.

Have a brewski with us.

Watch the sun set over beautiful New Jersey.

Hawk the dynamite chicks at happy hour.

Whatever!

Hey, thanks for the invite. I'll try to make it over there.

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Oh, and thanks for the answers to my questions about heaven and hell. Very interesting.

Momma, you're okay in my book, even if you do believe in all that god stuff. :wink:

When I get a chance, I'll try to get back into this with you sometime.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

I took the verses straight from the Bible about God's name. Still, you have to be right and call it wrong.
[/quiote]

I was pointing out that the full name in Exodus was I AM that I AM....not just I AM.

Wake the hell up. If you are going to debate....at least do it like you are conscious.

Quote:
If you do not believe the things I point out in the Bible, why do you believe the things you point out?

I do not "believe" anything. Can't you get that through your thick skull? (said with a smile, of course)

Quote:

It seems like having your cake and eating it too. If you choose to believe God is a murderous, hateful, etc., God, then fine Frank. Believe that. Just don't tell me that the scripture I point out to you where He is loving and forgiving is wrong.

Jesus H. Christ, Momma....where have you pointed out anything like that?

You keep saying you will not do so....and you have your tail between your legs.

Give me an example of your god being on the scene and having the scenario be primarily one of compassion, love, understanding, etc. All I ask is that the god not be threatening, killing, instructing others to kill.

POINT ONE PASSAGE OUT WHERE THE SCENARIO IS THAT!

Stop pretending that you have and that I have rejected it.

You haven't....and you are not fooling anyone by claiming that you have.

Quote:
What is so illogical about that? You show me where God has killed. I show you where God shows love. You believe what you point out but not what I point out.

DO IT!

Quote:
And I especially find your attitude of you being smarter than anyone else as extremely pompous.

I am not smarter than anyone else....and I have never claimed that.

I sure as hell am smarter than you.

Quote:
And you are now at the top of my prayer list. I still love ya!

Good.

Thank you once again.

You really don't have to keep mentioning it...unless you are trying to convince yourself.

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Momma

The "I sure as hell am smarter than you" line was over the top.

I withdraw it....and apologize for it....unconditionally.

I did not want to edit it out....and preferred to deal with it this way.

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Kickycan, thank you for the kind words and I look forward to it!

Frank,

Look, I told you that my signature on my posts is what I BELIEVE to be God's ultimate show of love.

You don't like it? Don't like it and let it go. Let's discuss other things.

So, you don't believe in anything? Then you what? Choose something to argue about just for fun? Laughing

You obviously DO BELIEVE that the God of the Bible is a murderous, vindictive, etc. God. I just don't understand why you seemingly choose to believe part of the Bible and not the rest.

Wow! I am speechless. I really do appreciate you apologizing. You could have edited it out and I never would have known it. Thank you for that. I told you, I know there is a gentleman in there somewhere. Apology accepted, also unconditionally.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Look, I told you that my signature on my posts is what I BELIEVE to be God's ultimate show of love.

The challenge is to show the god of the Bible on the scene showing compassion, love, understanding.

The god is not on the scene in John 3:16.

We are talking about the god Jesus considered God...the god of the Old Testament.

Quote:

You don't like it? Don't like it and let it go. Let's discuss other things.

Okay...you start.

Quote:

So, you don't believe in anything? Then you what? Choose something to argue about just for fun?

You obviously DO BELIEVE that the God of the Bible is a murderous, vindictive, etc. God.

NO I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT the god of the Bible is a murderous, vindictive, barbarian.

I know that.

I can prove that.

And if you will take up the challenge I offered....you will see that I can prove it.

The god is murderous, vindictive, barbarous. The god is never (except that one case) ever loving, kind, understanding.

Go to the challenge....and you will see.

Quote:

I just don't understand why you seemingly choose to believe part of the Bible and not the rest.

I DO NOT BELIEVE PARTS OF THE BIBLE.

I do not do "believing" at all.

Try to get that!

Quote:

Wow! I am speechless. I really do appreciate you apologizing. You could have edited it out and I never would have known it. Thank you for that. I told you, I know there is a gentleman in there somewhere. Apology accepted, also unconditionally.

Well...if you knew me...if we sat down for a drink or a coffee...you would find that I am a moral, kind, reasonable, helpful person....a person of high integrity and a good and loyal friend.

I am also thrifty, and brave....if I remember the Boy Scout oath.

I most assuredly am not reverant.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

Look, I told you that my signature on my posts is what I BELIEVE to be God's ultimate show of love.

Which brings us full circle to the point where I asked you how you rationalize in your mind the change from a vengeful God to a forgiving God. Your response was that there was no change. You insisted "When one really begins to read and study the Bible it becomes clear that God is not any different from the Old Testament to the New Testament." Yet when asked to back that nonsensical statement up, you refuse.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Genesis 2:15-17

The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

As Paul would say "and now for the rest of the story"

In an exchange with neologist here.

Terry wrote:

God told Adam, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

The serpent told Eve, "You will not surely die, for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

They ate, their eyes were opened, and they did not die. According to Genesis, Adam lived for over 900 years after being banished from Eden.

The serpent told them the truth. If you do not believe that, tell me in what way he deceived them. Why do you suppose that God lied to them? Why would God want them to remain naked and ignorant of morality forever? Where did the serpent get its knowledge? Do you think that God forbade it to eat the fruit but it disobeyed as well?

Do you really believe in talking snakes, magical fruit, and God imposing the death penalty for choosing knowledge over ignorance, or might the Bible contain some colorful myths?

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Ah Mesquite,

But, you just took part of what I posted. I posted a bunch on that with scriptures backing up WHAT I BELIEVE.

Frank, you are trying to prove something. I am not.

Truce Frank. I am not accepting the challenge period. So, call it a win, call it a forfeit, call it whatever you want. I am just not accepting the challenge.

You are asking me to engage in a challenge where the Bible is used to refute the Bible, and I am sorry, I still do not understand the logic of that.

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The scriptures did not back it up. I pointed that out to you.

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So, you think it was God that lied to Adam and Eve and not the Devil?

God was not talking about the body physically dying. Adam and Eve were all set up in the Garden of Eden, a perfect place. Had everything they needed and God just gave them one rule, don't eat of that tree. Ooops! They did, innocence is gone forever. Break God's laws you get punished.

One must remember that the Bible is written not to be taken literally (as in you are going to die right after you take a bite out of that fruit.)

What God meant was the wages of sin is death. And, in the old Testament there was no intercessory but Jesus is the intercessory in the New Testament.

But, if you want to believe that it was God that lied and the devil told the truth, go right ahead. But, remember, Satan is the father of all lies.

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The Bible already refutes the Bible. All that Frank is trying to do is get you to see it. The process is called learning.

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The scripture did not back that up? In your interpretation you mean. Once again, it's you asked what I believed and I told you. Whether you accept it or not is your option.

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I sincerely doubt that Frank has my education at heart here.

You say the Bible does refute the Bible. I say it does not.

So, we have a difference of opinion. I am content in my beliefs. Frank is positive he is right.

So, I ask once again. Why are you pushing it? I am not trying to force my beliefs or whatever you want to call them" on you?

They are my beliefs, it is my right to believe the way I do, and it is yours and Frank's right to believe or (whatever it is you want to call it) what you do.

It is a difference of opinion. Let's just agree to disagree.

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kickycan wrote:

I have a question.

If someone has never been exposed to the Christian God and/or religion, and therefore never accepts Jesus as his/her savior, but otherwise lives their life in a good and "Christian" way, will they go to heaven or hell?

Allow me to answer with a quote recorded by the apostle John.

"Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28,29)

Additional reading makes it clear that the judgment will be based on deeds committed after the resurrection, not before. (Otherwise, what is the need for a resurrection?)

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Huh? You lost me. Whose resurrection are you (or John) talking about?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

MA, Don't you feel extra-special that you were born in a country with parents who believed in the bible god? All those poor people born in Asia with predominantly buddhist, hindu and islam are less lucky; poor saps - they'll all end up in hell.

You've been shown that the bible does not support this falsehood. Why, then, do you continue to accuse?

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I second that Neologist. I am learning more and more!

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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