If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Sorry Momma...but at best, you are working a guess here.

You are guessing that there is a God...and that the God is that god described in the Bible...and the god of the Bible told Moses its name.

That is an awful lot of guessing.

In any case, I am suggesting that it make as much sense to suppose God's name is Zeus or Osiris...as Jehovah, Yahweh, Dumbledore, or anything else.





I know why!

Neither you nor any of the others arguing your position can find any passages where your god is on the scene and is being the kind, compassionate, loving god you want to pretend the god of the Bible is. And even if you could find the one (possible) exception...I could cite dozens upon dozens of instances where the god is on the scene primarily to threaten humans, punish them, kill them, or instruct them to kill others.

That is the reason you are not accepting my challenge.

Although I do appreciate the several laughs you've furnished by your pretences that there is another reason.




My challenge has absolutely no relationship to the challenge your Satan threw out to Jesus....and you know that.

But I guess when you are backed into a corner....the best thing to do is to pretend. And that is what you are doing.

Oh no you don't. You cannot blame others for damning you to hell.

If you went out and murdered someone and were given the death penalty because you murdered someone (all the while knowing the consequences) who would you blame for that?

Thank you, Momma. So you are saying that someone who is ignorant of God will go to heaven?

Also, what about the idea that there is only one God, and the Christian god is that God? Do you believe that? Because if you do, then what about someone who has never heard of the Christian God, but has heard of the God of, say, the Islamic faith? Will that person go to heaven too, even though they believe in the "wrong" God?

This is one of my major problems with God. There seems to be so many people telling everybody that their God is the one true God. And it seems that which one you believe in has more to do with geography than anything else. If there really is one true God, and he is a just God, as you say, why woulnd't he give everyone an equal shot at finding out about him? That doesn't seem very just to me.

"This is one of my major problems with God."

you have a problem with God?

Love ya, Frank. And just for you. When Moses asked God what name Moses should tell the people, God said, tell them I AM.

You call what I believe guessing. What do you call what you believe? Oh yeah. Agnostic. But, that does not seem to stop you from believing you are right and I am wrong.

So Frank, if I just gave up and said, "Ok Frank, I guess there is a God, and His name is Frank, would you then be happy?"

And Frank, the only verse I need to prove God's love for me and everyone is my signature below. You don't have to believe it, you don't have to accept it, that's your business.

And great! I am glad you have been appreciating the laughs. I told you one of the things I pray for is for everyone to have at least one reason to smile everyday.

Naughty, naughty. In your opinion, I am pretending. And quite frankly, Frank, your opinion is of no consequence in my life, just as mine is of no consequence in yours.

Yes. But shhhhh...don't let him hear me say that!

For anyone who has been following this "question" Momma proposed about "What is god's name?"....

...this is an issue that has come up dozens of times in various threads over the years....and seems to bring great joy to the people who propose it.

It has to do with a section from Exodus...where Moses supposedly has a conversation with a god.

You can read about here if you want....but to be honest with you, you'd be better off not bothering. Exodus is so obviously phony....it really doesn't warrant much attention.

Anyone reading it realizes almost immediately that the conversations surely did not take place while these folks were wandering in the desert having just escaped from Egypt. Everything points to the "revelations" to Moses as having been written while the Hebrew nation was in full bloom.

No he didn't!

If you want to read about what actually was said...click on "here" in my previous post.




I do not do "believing", Momma. I am adult enough to call my guesses "guesses"...and my estimates "estimates."





I do not "believe" I am right and you are wrong. I know damn well that I am right and you are wrong. At least on the things we have been debating.




I am always happy. I am one of the happiest and content people I know.





That signature does not PROVE anything. Try to think logically and reasonably. It won't hurt.




Good.




Whatever. But you do seem very interested in keeping this conversation going...so obviously it is not of "no consequences."

kicky brings up some interesting questions about 'god,' but nobody seems able to answer it. What about all those gods before the supposed life of jesus? Were they fodder for not knowing? They also had many gods, but none were the christian type. Does the sun god help?

Actually....the questions Kicky brought up have been raised for centuries....and both St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas dealt with the problem.

I'd tell you what they had to say....as among the earliest church fathers....but it is around dinner time and I wouldn't want anyone throwing up all over their keyboard just before supper.

Although if Kicky asks nicely....I will relent.

Frank,

The reason the name of God came up was because I told you God's last name was not damn and you replied, "pray tell, what is it?" You asked and I told you where to find it.

Kickycan,

I totally understand your major problem with God in the respect of people going to heaven or hell. I believe (get that Frank, ME, I, sharing my beliefs here) that if a person truly has no knowledge of God, whether it be because of where they live, how old they are, etc., God is not going to punish them for not knowing. In that respect I believe ignorance is bliss. God gives us a choice. We make that choice on the information we gather. If the information is unavailable or held from you, etc., you cannot make a choice.

Do I personally believe the God of the Bible is the One True God. Yes, I do. I will not lie to you and I will not dodge that bullet. But I believe that through my faith. What good would a God be to anyone if He were not the One True God? It does not make sense to me to believe in a God who would not be all powerful.

I, in no way, presume to know all there is to know about God or why He does what He does or what He doesn't do. He is God, all knowing, all loving, and all powerful. If I understood Him fully, would that not make me believe I was God myself? Perhaps not the best of statements there but I hope you get my meaning.

As for someone knowing of the Islamic faith and not of God. Well, I would imagine that someone that had access to one set of religious beliefs they would probably have access to others; thereby having to make a choice. But, if the Islamic religion was all they ever had access to and absolutely no inkling of Chrisitianity, then no, I do not believe that God would condemn them, just as He would not condemn a child that is unable to understand.

I hope that helps explain what I feel a bit more. I greatly appreciate the questions as they are helping me learn.

"if a person truly has no knowledge of God, whether it be because of where they live, how old they are, etc., God is not going to punish them for not knowing."

Well thats a relief because I live on the third rock from the sun and i'm about half way between birth and death.

Momma how can you come out with such fatuous bull**** be honest you have no idea better than me frank the pope or Adolf Hiltler. How can you ascribe attributes and characteristics to God? Who are you, a mere sub atomic particle in the uninverse, to say you know? You dont. Be honest. You HOPE but thats different.

MA, Don't you feel extra-special that you were born in a country with parents who believed in the bible god? All those poor people born in Asia with predominantly buddhist, hindu and islam are less lucky; poor saps - they'll all end up in hell.

Exodus 3:13-17

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, The God, of your fathers has sent me to you," and they ask me, "What is his name? "Then what shall I tell them?"

Gods said to Moses, "I AM who I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: "I AM has sent me to you."

God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, "The Lord, the God of your fathers - The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob - has sent me to you. This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation."

And Frank, let me ask you a question. If, you don't believe in the Bible as you say, why do you keep using it to back up your arguments?

And what I meant of it being no consequence in my life, I mean your opinions are not going to change mine, especially since when you are proven mistaken you will not admit it.

And gee, you finally admitted it. You are right and I am wrong, all the while accusing Christians of having that attitude and not once have I told you that you were wrong.

Oh, and Frank. I clicked on that link. Funny, it states right there just the verses I gave you.

And still, you use Biblical text, which you do not believe in, to support your arguments?

Hummmm...yet when I pointed out that Adam and Eve did not have information available to them to make a choice (they did not know the difference between good and evil...right and wrong BEFORE eating the fruit of the tree of that knowledge)....you did not feel this way.

Why is that?



Well...let me help you learn a little more.

People much smarter and better studied than you (I refer here to St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas) have a different take on this.

(Kicky ain't here to ask nicely....so I'm gonna have to presume he would ask nicely if he were....and get to the info.)

St. Augustine...one of the first church fathers, scholar, doctor....of your religion...taught that anyone dying without having been cleansed of the sin passed on to all humans by Adam (Original Sin)...

...for whatever reason or reasons...

...would go to Hell to spend eternity there.

Augustine posited a section of Hell that did not have all of the punishments available for those who lead desolute lives....but these souls, said the good doctor, would spend eternity in Hell.

St. Augustine, like St. Momma here, was of the opinion that anyone with any kind of sin on their soul could not get into the presence of their god because....well....because who knows why.

(The Catholic Church still teaches this...with proviso for alternatives to specific Baptism [remission of Original Sin].)

Aquinas refined this a bit.

Aquinas proposed places called Limbos...where souls still stained by sin...even if just Original Sin...went.

But it is a distinction without a difference.

The singular most pointed aspect of the Limbos....is that they deny the soul access and personal contact with the god...the so-called Beatific Vision of God.

That is reserved only for those in Heaven....and is the intimate, personal contact with the god.

And....since the single most torturous aspect of Hell is the denial of the souls there of the Beatific Vision....being in the Limbos is essentially suffering the tortures of the damned for all eternity.

What a loving god!!!!!!!


NOTE TO THE CHRISTIANS HERE IN THIS THREAD: Be very, very careful how you deal with this information.

It is correct in all its essentials...and if needs be, I can document it all. (You really would do well to do the research yourself through Google, though....so I won't offer it here, now.)

But I've set a trap for you by giving you the info.

Argue with me on it if you will....but I'm gonna slam dunk you on other isses if you are not very careful.

Don't say I didn't warn yez!!!!!

A question was asked of what I believe. I answered what I believe. You and others do not happen to believe what I believe. So? Don't. It's your choice. God gave you that choice. Resorting to calling my beliefs fatuous bs serves no purpose. But call away if you must.

And as to the countries being predominantly one religion or another? Missionaries carry the gospel to these countries. I said "if" one has no knowledge. It was your question. If you have no knowledge or access to the information, why would God punish you for that?

I am merely explaining what I believe. I am not telling you that everything I believe is without flaw. You asked, I answered. You just don't like my answers.

I AM who I AM....or in some versions....I AM that AM.

Not, as you said, I AM.

The Yahweh designation requires all the words....not just a few.





Good grief, Momma....are you literate?

If I am arguing about what it says in the Bible...what the hell should I use to back up my arguments...Playboy Magazine.

My guess is that the Bible is primarily fiction....(all fiction as regards its theology)....but if I am going to discuss what is written in the book...I have to refer to it.

Jeez!!!!! Arguing with amateurs can be so frustrating.





I didn't "admit" it....I simply stated it. You are wrong quite often. No big deal.





I do not know what in the hell you are talking about here. If I have "accused you" of anything...quote what thing I "accused you" of....and we can discuss it.

Really, Momma....you are way over your head here.

Try to be logical.

Genesis 2:15-17

The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

And still, referring to the Bible? If you don't believe in it, then why do you use anything from it? Oh, I see. You believe the parts you want to believe. But, I see that you have no problem at all finding other of "man's" opinions to accept.

So, as long as they agree with what you estimate, guess, whatever you call it, then it is ok? If it does not agree with you then everyone else is wrong? Dang, must be hard being perfect like that. The last perfect being was crucified.