If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Momma Angel wrote:

Neologist,

Ok, here is the scripture to go along with that introduction on the trinity.

1) There is one God: Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14. In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages: In the Old Testament, "LORD" is distinguished from "Lord" (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The "LORD" has a "Son" (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD" (Numbers 27:18) and from "God" (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, John 14:16-17 is where Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity - the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God: The Father is God: John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2. The Son is God: John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16 (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Romans 8:9; John 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4).

5) The subordination within the Trinity: Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship, and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see: Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21; 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see: John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The tasks of the individual members of the Trinity: The Father is the ultimate source or cause of: 1) the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); 2) divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); 3) salvation (John 3:16-17); and 4) Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father INITIATES all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: 1) the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); 2) divine revelation (John 1:1; Matthew 11:27; John 16:12-15; Revelation 1:1); and 3) salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: 1) creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); 2) divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); 3) salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and 4) Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

None of the popular illustrations are completely accurate descriptions of the Trinity. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not parts of God, each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better but still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration. Instead of focusing on the Trinity, try to focus on the fact of God's greatness and infinitely higher nature than our own. "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" (Romans 11:33-34)

You need to do better research, Momma. Elohim, a plural, is used to refer not only to Jehovah, but also angels and false gods, even human judges. It signifies majesty as royal figures often are referred to in the plural form. "We are not amused," remember?

To whom did Jesus pray?
Who resurrected Jesus?
To whom was Jesus obedient?

Don't use the esoteric 'it's a mystery' line.
". . . we worship what we know. . ."

If Jesus were God, what would be the value of his showing obedience to himself and submitting himself to torture and death as an answer to Satan's challenge that no one would obey God if put to the test?

Imagine Jesus before he died saying "Oh me; Oh my: why have I forsaken myself?

And, according to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher's [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions."?-(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

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In your opinion and interpretation but not mine. And, I will be sure to pass along to the Bible scholar I got this information from you feel they used Elohim incorrectly?

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The bible was written so that the unsophisticated and uneducated would be able to understand it. You haven't met my friend Joe Sixpack. He doesn't really exist, of course, but I call him the quintessential common man. If I don't believe he could understand the things I post, I try to rewrite them until they become simple.

When you are able to articulate your beliefs and actually believe them, you will find your faith to be stronger.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Dance, dance, dance.

The challenge....since you assert your god is a loving, understanding god....is to choose passages from the Bible where the god of the Bible is on the scene....

...with you citing the ones that show the god being loving and understanding....

...and me citing the ones that have the god threatening, killing, requiring killing, bullying, and all that stuff.

Have some spine, Neo.

Acknowledge that you cannot do this because every situation that has the god of the Bible on the scene....the god is being a scumbag.

C'mon. Show a bit of integrity....even if you have to fake it.

I make no apology for the events of the bible.
Everything was recorded for a purpose:
Every birth
Every death
Every blessing
Every malediction
Every (endless) geneology

Some were executed for wrongdoing to serve as an example to us.
Some died to emphasize the futility of challenging God.
Some murders were detailed to show not only God's disapproval, but also the consequences of the deed.
Some just died because all of us are under the sentence of death.

There were rescues
There were love stories
Heroic deeds
Unusual endurance
Colossal failures

So you think I am embarrassed by God's killing of Egypt's firstborn? As much as I sympathize with the pain suffered by those families, are they any more dead because of the passover event than they would otherwise be at this point in time? Are they any less entitled to the promised resurrection? One reason for the 'firstborn' might have been to emphasize the importance of God's firstborn giving his life some 1600 Passovers later. (BTW, they were not all babies. They could have been any age. You don't believe they were babies, do you Frank?)

Frank, I submit that your friend Pharaoh deserved to die. How about that?

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Ooooh! What you said! LOL. I am with you there Neologist. God gave Pharoah chance after chance after chance to let His people go. He just had to keep using a bigger baseball bat to get Pharoah's attention.

But Frank, I am curious about one thing. You continually point out God's acts of killing. What about the slaying of the children of Israel? The king had all male children the age of 2 and under slain because he wanted to wipe the Christchild off the face of the earth.

I hope someday to be able to articulate better what it is I do believe. And you are definitely right, my faith will only grow stronger.

I enjoy these conversations immensely and thank you for imparting your wisdom.

God Bless You!

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Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:
Yes, you did answer it. I hope you had your fingers crossed when you said there was no difference. Do you think Jesus would have said to stone a man to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

No, I don't think He would have. According to Jewish law, an adulteress was to be stoned right? You've heard that story? Well, same thing here, Christ paid the price for those sins by His crucifixion. He probably would have said the same thing he said to the adulteress, "He who has no sin, let him cast the first stone. ...But, as for me, I do not condemn you."

Forget the paying the price part. It is immaterial to the discussion of whether there was a major difference between the teachings of Jesus and God. I contend that there is and you say there is not.

Just as a refresher this was the way God handled a similar situation.
Numbers 15:32-36

Quote:

32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses

Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:
What is your opinion of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35?

You know of the deal about wives submit unto your husbands? Well, most leave out the rest of that. It is ....as your husbands submit unto Christ. This meaning that if a man follows Christ then he will be doing right and his wife should then follow the husband. I totally agree with women not holding high positions in the church. God made women and men to think differently. A woman thinks more with her heart and, as we all know, emotions can cloud any issue. So, that's my opinion.

So you agree with it? I assume then that you follow the directive and keep silent in church?

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You are quoting from the Old Testament again. Christ was not even born yet. There was no intercessory with God at that time so God's laws stood as God laid them down. And, do you know if that was a law that God handed down or was it a law that the Jewish church officials came up with? I don't know the answer to that. But, doesn't matter. So, if you don't like a law that our government has, you ignore it and do what you want when you know what the punishment is? You don't break the law, you don't suffer the punishment. It's each individual's own responsibility because we have free will. Hey, I may not like all the laws God set forth, but I'm smart enough to follow them. I don't blame things on Him because I don't like his punishments.

It seems to me that the blame is continually placed on God and it is man that sins not God. And dang, He's God, He gets to make the rules.

And yes, I do follow the directive and keep silent in the church. But oh yeah, you can hear me singing because I'm the one that can't sing on key! Laughing

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Momma Angel wrote:

Neologist, yes, rather shocked, but hey, we all believe in different things.

Yep....and that illustrates the problem with this "believing" stuff.

Anyone can make a wild, absolutely uninformed guess....something pulled out of thin air....and say, "I believe this."

"Believing" is nothing but guessing....and disguising the fact that it is a guess by calling it a "belief."

And then...the folks who do all this wild guessing...berate the rest of us if we laugh at the guess....and tell us that we have some kind of obligation to be respectful of these wild, unsubstantiated guesses.

Makes ya wonder.

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Dance, dance, dance.

The challenge....since you assert your god is a loving, understanding god....is to choose passages from the Bible where the god of the Bible is on the scene....

...with you citing the ones that show the god being loving and understanding....

...and me citing the ones that have the god threatening, killing, requiring killing, bullying, and all that stuff.

Have some spine, Neo.

Acknowledge that you cannot do this because every situation that has the god of the Bible on the scene....the god is being a scumbag.

C'mon. Show a bit of integrity....even if you have to fake it.
I make no apology for the events of the bible.
Everything was recorded for a purpose:
Every birth
Every death
Every blessing
Every malediction
Every (endless) geneology

Some were executed for wrongdoing to serve as an example to us.
Some died to emphasize the futility of challenging God.
Some murders were detailed to show not only God's disapproval, but also the consequences of the deed.
Some just died because all of us are under the sentence of death.

There were rescues
There were love stories
Heroic deeds
Unusual endurance
Colossal failures

So you think I am embarrassed by God's killing of Egypt's firstborn? As much as I sympathize with the pain suffered by those families, are they any more dead because of the passover event than they would otherwise be at this point in time? Are they any less entitled to the promised resurrection? One reason for the 'firstborn' might have been to emphasize the importance of God's firstborn giving his life some 1600 Passovers later. (BTW, they were not all babies. They could have been any age. You don't believe they were babies, do you Frank?)

Frank, I submit that your friend Pharaoh deserved to die. How about that?

You claim your god is a loving, kind, compassionate god. I claim the god of the Bible...as described in the Bible...is a barbaric, murderous monster.

If you ever get the balls to acknowledge that you cannot find any passages in the Bible where the scenario is mostly showing the god being loving, kind, or compassionate....rather than threatening and murderous....you would be making a huge step up the integrity ladder that you are still footing.

The rest of this dance, dance, dance....is funny.

Thanks for the laugh.

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Believing is wishing something is true.

I, too, got a good laugh reviewing this thread.

The Egyptians did not have slavery -- their conquered enemies were made into citizens and the monuments were built by farmers, doctors, showmakes, et al, who had extra time to volunteer. They were paid wages. There is not evidence that Moses ever existed and the phenomenas described in the bible for the Exodus have historical evidence. For instance, the pillar of fire would be the eruption of Thera which would have drained the Reed Sea (not the Red Sea as DeMille-ized) and caused a tidal wave. The plagues also have historical evidence from natural phenomena.

Why isn't this God bring wrath to the evil doers (a Bushism) as he did in the Bible? Has he retired and is playing golf in the big course in the sky?
Or perhaps his Tinkerbell wand has run our of batteries, or he has a long term sinus condition that curtails his twitching of his Bewitched nose.

Pople fear randomness and religion is one way to explain randomness. - Frank Leibowitz

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Momma Angel wrote:

Ooooh! What you said! LOL. I am with you there Neologist. God gave Pharoah chance after chance after chance to let His people go. He just had to keep using a bigger baseball bat to get Pharoah's attention.

No, Momma...he did NOT give Pharoah chance after chance. In fact, just the opposite. He set Pharoah up for all this.

Exodus 4:21 "On your return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have put in your power. I will make him obstinate, however, so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3 "Yet I will make Pharaoh so obstinate that, despite the many signs and wonders that I will work in the land of Egypt, he will not listen to you."

It is only in your imagination that your god gave Pharaoh chance after chance.

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Free will, Frank, Pharoah had free will.

Exodus 8:32 - But this time also hardened his heart and would not let the people go.

Lightwizard, if the Egyptians did not have slaves, and had "jobs" I don't believe God would have stepped in there. I don't think God belongs to any union (so, what? The Israelites just went on strike?0

And like Neologist and I both have told you repeatedly, we are sitting that dance out. So, there you go, trying to force something by your goading. Dang, isn't that what Christians get accused of all the time?

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You just tangled up your own argument because "God' didn't step in -- it never happened.
You go on with your superstition and when the full moon rises again, hide in the closet.

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Seems to me there has to be something greater out there. So, what, we all just materialized?

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Another one of those - "how dare you tell me you think I am wrong because you are a Christian - but I can tell you that Christians are wrong because I don't believe."

A bit of a double standard don't you think?

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The Bible said we all just materialized at the wave of some gentlemen in the sky's wand. You obviously do not have any knowledge of cosmology -- you probably think it's cosmetology. Makeup, anyone?

You feel free to believe in anything you want to if it makes you happy and explains the randomness.

I would subscribe to Aristotle's idea of The Great Mover. The "The" is where the intellectual concept breaks down -- for those who want to believe what was written in the Old Testament, a mythological fairy tale, or where scientific fact leads us to know.

You don't want to know, therefore you will never learn.

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Ah, passing judgement I see? (This is me turning my other cheek.) Rolling Eyes

And, just where do you suppose Aristotle got his smarts from? It ALL comes from somewhere.

Lightwizard Wrote:

Quote:

You don't want to know, therefore you will never learn.

Loosely translated means, I am right and you are wrong.

Kisses!

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Momma Angel wrote:

Free will, Frank, Pharoah had free will.

Exodus 8:32 - But this time also hardened his heart and would not let the people go.

Your god supposedly can do anything...and he told his favorite person, Moses, that he was going to make him obstinate so that he (Pharaoh) would not relent no matter how much misery the god caused Egypt.

THE GOD WAS GOING TO MAKE PHARAOH OBSTINATE.

Don't give me that "free will" crapola, Momma. Your god supposedly can do anything....make an entire universe complete with hundreds of billions of galaxies each comprised of hundreds of billions of stars.

If you "believe" in the fairytale...you surely have to "believe" that your god could do what he said he was going to do....to MAKE Pharaoh refuse to relent.

Why on earth are you unwilling to acknowledge that?

Is your god making you obstinate? Or are you simply using your free will to pretend that the OBVIOUS is not obvious?

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Loosely translated, your semantics and understand of the Bible or science is on a third grade level. Bye, now.

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Momma don't quite. Smile

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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