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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
xingu
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jul, 2005 08:37 am
shiyacic aleksandar

If your going to copy someone's writing be considerate enough to say so and give credit to the author, unless you claim to be Maitreya.

http://www.shareintl.org/archives/AgelessWisdom/aw_Mt-religion.htm
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jul, 2005 08:49 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
Nobody takes anyone seriously when they write like an idiot one day....and a scholar the next.

Pick a persona and stick with it.
A case of identity crisis, Frank.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jul, 2005 09:55 am
neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Nobody takes anyone seriously when they write like an idiot one day....and a scholar the next.

Pick a persona and stick with it.
A case of identity crisis, Frank.


I guess. :wink:

And I see Xingu has detected some...out-sourcing....for want of a better word.
0 Replies
 
Joshman
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 01:40 am
Re: If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?
Caesar wrote:
It doesnt make sense. Jesus dies so that "all" of us can be saved, yet we still need a place for the un-saved people...Explain.


Plain and simple answer, read Rom 10:9. People that go to hell are those who choose not to recieve what Christ has done. If you are $100 short on rent and I offer that money to you but you do not recieve it, you don't make rent. Similarly, Christ offers salvation from eternal death, but many choose not to recieve that gift.
0 Replies
 
Joshman
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 01:41 am
Re: If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?
Caesar wrote:
It doesnt make sense. Jesus dies so that "all" of us can be saved, yet we still need a place for the un-saved people...Explain.


Plain and simple answer, read Rom 10:9. People that go to hell are those who choose not to recieve what Christ has done. If you are $100 short on rent and I offer that money to you but you do not recieve it, you don't make rent. Similarly, Christ offers salvation from eternal death, but many choose not to recieve that gift.
0 Replies
 
Joshman
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 01:42 am
Re: If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?
Caesar wrote:
It doesnt make sense. Jesus dies so that "all" of us can be saved, yet we still need a place for the un-saved people...Explain.


Plain and simple answer, read Rom 10:9. People that go to hell are those who choose not to recieve what Christ has done. If you are $100 short on rent and I offer that money to you but you do not recieve it, you don't make rent. Similarly, Christ offers salvation from eternal death, but many choose not to recieve that gift.
0 Replies
 
Joshman
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 01:45 am
Caesar wrote:
It doesnt make sense. Jesus dies so that "all" of us can be saved, yet we still need a place for the un-saved people...Explain.


Plain and simple answer, read Rom 10:9. People that go to hell are those who choose not to receive what Christ has done. If you are $100 short on rent and I offer that money to you but you do not receive it, you don't make rent. Similarly, Christ offers salvation from eternal death, but many choose not to receive that gift
0 Replies
 
Joshman
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 01:53 am
xingu wrote:
What make you so certain there's a hell?

If god is a god of perfect love then hell would not exist.

Only hate creates hell. Hate is the domain of humans.

When humans can't express their hate in the manner they desire they give that task to their gods.

Then, with their incredible imagination, humans tell all the horrible things their gods will do to those who will not believe as they do.

God cares not what we believe. If god did then why has he provided souls to all manners of faith and non-belief?


God is love, and hell is eternal seperation from God, not by His choice, but by ours when we refuse to recieve the gift of salvation. Aside form that, While God is love, God is alos a jealous God, if you had a child who knew that you created him and basically gave him all he needed to live a complete life, but the child constantly thanked the milk man or the paper guy for all that he has, wouldn't you be a little upset?
0 Replies
 
Joshman
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 02:09 am
Bella Dea wrote:
Hell exists because :

One of God's angels, Lucifer, thought he was better than God and challenged him, along with some other angels. God cast him out of heaven and Hell was created.

We are "allowed" to go to Hell because God gave us free will. The ability to choose whether we serve God or fight Him. If we accept Him, we will go to heaven. If we deny Him, we go to Hell.


So basically God is saying... "do what I say or you will burn for eternity in Hell"

This is where this theology breaks down.

I choose to go to Heaven (or at least to avoid hell). I also choose to do the things that make my life enjoyable and meaningful... even though this goes against the Bible.

Now there is the strange variant of "accepting Jesus" with grace and faith and all that. But, this is an inherent contradiction.

I did accept Jesus (I was converted twice... once when I was 12). So, now that I am agnostic and don't even make an attempt to continue my once religious life... am I still covered? (This is an issue of debate amoung the Protestant denominations.)

Can I accept Jesus... and still enter a civil union with the same sex partner that I love? Is it heaven or hell for me in this case?

But anyway... "do what I say or suffer a horrible fate"... is not free will. Heck, people in Stalinist Russia had this kind of "free will". You were free think, say, write whatever you wanted... if you didn't mind being tortured and sent to a prison work camp.

This part of Christianity has always been a big problem.


I believe, just as we are free to go rob a bank if we want, we still have to deal with the consequences of what we do because we know what the rules of this country are. Like wise, God left the bible, which lets us know how to live, if we deviate from that then we deal with the consequences. As far as being converted twice. Think of it like this. If I am sitting next to you in at Taco Bell and tell you there is a bomb in the building set to detonate in 5 minutes, you have 2 choices, believe me or not. If you believe me, you will act on what I have told you and get out of dodge before that 5 minutes is up. So it is with God and the bible, to believe in Christ and recieve salvation requires some action on your part if you really believe what HE has revealed to you. Entering into a same sex marriage is basically saying, "God, you said this is wrong, but, even though you CREATED me and gave me a purpose, I know what is really right and really best for me."
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 02:50 am
Joshman wrote:
xingu wrote:
What make you so certain there's a hell?

If god is a god of perfect love then hell would not exist.

Only hate creates hell. Hate is the domain of humans.

When humans can't express their hate in the manner they desire they give that task to their gods.

Then, with their incredible imagination, humans tell all the horrible things their gods will do to those who will not believe as they do.

God cares not what we believe. If god did then why has he provided souls to all manners of faith and non-belief?


God is love, and hell is eternal seperation from God, not by His choice, but by ours when we refuse to recieve the gift of salvation. Aside form that, While God is love, God is alos a jealous God, if you had a child who knew that you created him and basically gave him all he needed to live a complete life, but the child constantly thanked the milk man or the paper guy for all that he has, wouldn't you be a little upset?


Yeah...I might be "a little upset."

But your god...that cartoon character....is a bit more than just a little upset.

Do you suppose that condemning a person to excruciating torture for all the rest of eternity is the sign of being "a little upset?"

The god notion contained in the Bible is so ludicrous...that it seems incredible that adults of this day and age would "believe in" in....but to defend the notion that a god would be so petty and cruel...and try to make that god out to be a loving god...goes beyond the pale.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 05:12 am
Quote:
God is love, and hell is eternal seperation from God, not by His choice, but by ours when we refuse to recieve the gift of salvation.


We don't need to be offered salvation if God is love. Toleration of all beliefs and non-beliefs is what we would expect if God is love, kindness and justice. Humans, for the most part, tolerate other religions and cultures. They don't reject or cast out of their mist others who don't believe as they do.

America is a country that stands toleration and acceptance of all religious beliefs and non-beliefs. Your God would not make a good American. He would not accept our secular Constitution. The first four commandments of the Ten Commandments are not acceptable to America's principals.

So why can't your God measure up to human standards? Why do you degrade him so by making him something that we would never tolerate in a human.

Quote:
Aside form that, While God is love, God is alos a jealous God,


Jealousy is not a sign of perfection but weakness and insecurity. It is a defect, a human defect.

You forgot to mention that your God is a vengeful God; another serious defect.

Your God is also selfish. He's intolerant.

Your God of the Bible is what we teach our kids not to be; jealous, vengeful, selfish and intolerant of other religious beliefs.

But then, there may be conservative Christians out there who think these Godly attributes are wonderful.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 03:14 pm
god is a figment of mans imagination
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neologist
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 06:33 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
god is a figment of mans imagination
Or, perhaps man is a manifestation of God's imagination.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 06:50 pm
Or, as John Scopes put it, God created man, and man, being a gentleman, returned the compliment.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 07:23 pm
Consider the following little updated/improved proof of the existence of God...

You know that all of the various 'proofs' ; they used to use in the middle ages have pretty much fallen by the wayside, particularly the "ontological" proof, you know, 'We perceive God to be that than which, nothing greater can be conceived...'; and all that.

My proof goes like this. You walk into a Home Depot store, and you walk over to the section where they sell propane barbeque grills. You know, these things:

http://www.belson.com/images/p30-1s.jpg

Right? Look around, and see if you can find one which operates itself with no human intervention at all. There aren't any, right? I mean, there aren't any which go out and find their own food, prepare it and cook it when the urge comes over them; they ALL require that a human put food on them, and then operate the controls to cook it, right? That at least implies the existence of people, right? I mean, who would make such a thing if there were no people to use it, right?

Similarly, since it is inconceivably that evolutionists and atheists should not burn in hell and since hell like the propane grill could not operate itself of its own volition, the devil has to exist to operate the thing, right? You know, your grand imperial master? And since the devil would create total evil in our world if operating in the absence of God and since the world is not totally, 100% evil and f**ked up, therefore also God has to exist, QED.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 08:10 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Consider the following little updated/improved proof of the existence of God...

You know that all of the various 'proofs' ; they used to use in the middle ages have pretty much fallen by the wayside, particularly the "ontological" proof, you know, 'We perceive God to be that than which, nothing greater can be conceived...'; and all that.

My proof goes like this. You walk into a Home Depot store, and you walk over to the section where they sell propane barbeque grills. You know, these things:

http://www.belson.com/images/p30-1s.jpg

Right? Look around, and see if you can find one which operates itself with no human intervention at all. There aren't any, right? I mean, there aren't any which go out and find their own food, prepare it and cook it when the urge comes over them; they ALL require that a human put food on them, and then operate the controls to cook it, right? That at least implies the existence of people, right? I mean, who would make such a thing if there were no people to use it, right?

Similarly, since it is inconceivably that evolutionists and atheists should not burn in hell and since hell like the propane grill could not operate itself of its own volition, the devil has to exist to operate the thing, right? You know, your grand imperial master? And since the devil would create total evil in our world if operating in the absence of God and since the world is not totally, 100% evil and f**ked up, therefore also God has to exist, QED.
The concept of a burning hell for the roasting, toasting, baking and broiling of unrepentant sinners is a pagan idea which has no biblical foundation.
If there were a punishment greater than death for man's sin, certainly a just and loving God would have warned Adam and Eve.
If there were a reward for obedience greater than everlasting life on earth, God would have told them of that as well.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jul, 2005 09:33 pm
Quote:
The concept of a burning hell for the roasting, toasting, baking and broiling of unrepentant sinners is a pagan idea which has no biblical foundation.


My belief is those who believe in hell are those who don't have the guts to torture and kill (like the Christians did in the early days) the ones who will not accept their dogma. So they assign the task to God.

Hateful people have hateful gods that torture and kill.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Sun 3 Jul, 2005 12:17 am
xingu wrote:
neologist wrote:
The concept of a burning hell for the roasting, toasting, baking and broiling of unrepentant sinners is a pagan idea which has no biblical foundation.


My belief is those who believe in hell are those who don't have the guts to torture and kill (like the Christians did in the early days) the ones who will not accept their dogma. So they assign the task to God.

Hateful people have hateful gods that torture and kill. Minor additions and emphasis for clarity
Precisely!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 3 Jul, 2005 02:45 am
neologist wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
Consider the following little updated/improved proof of the existence of God...

You know that all of the various 'proofs' ; they used to use in the middle ages have pretty much fallen by the wayside, particularly the "ontological" proof, you know, 'We perceive God to be that than which, nothing greater can be conceived...'; and all that.

My proof goes like this. You walk into a Home Depot store, and you walk over to the section where they sell propane barbeque grills. You know, these things:

http://www.belson.com/images/p30-1s.jpg

Right? Look around, and see if you can find one which operates itself with no human intervention at all. There aren't any, right? I mean, there aren't any which go out and find their own food, prepare it and cook it when the urge comes over them; they ALL require that a human put food on them, and then operate the controls to cook it, right? That at least implies the existence of people, right? I mean, who would make such a thing if there were no people to use it, right?

Similarly, since it is inconceivably that evolutionists and atheists should not burn in hell and since hell like the propane grill could not operate itself of its own volition, the devil has to exist to operate the thing, right? You know, your grand imperial master? And since the devil would create total evil in our world if operating in the absence of God and since the world is not totally, 100% evil and f**ked up, therefore also God has to exist, QED.
The concept of a burning hell for the roasting, toasting, baking and broiling of unrepentant sinners is a pagan idea which has no biblical foundation.
If there were a punishment greater than death for man's sin, certainly a just and loving God would have warned Adam and Eve.
If there were a reward for obedience greater than everlasting life on earth, God would have told them of that as well.


But then the fairytale wouldn't work. (Not that it works the way it is written!) :wink:

The Adam and Eve story is so absurd...it is even lousy, lousy allegory. Anyone who cannot see the set-up...anyone who cannot see that the couple could not appreciate anything about obedience or disobedience under the circumstances given in the tale...

...is simply blind by choice.

But of course, that is almost part of the definition of a theist.
0 Replies
 
shiyacic aleksandar
 
  1  
Wed 6 Jul, 2005 03:56 am
Self confidence,non violence,is the genuine faith.
0 Replies
 
 

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