80
   

If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Tue 22 Jun, 2021 08:32 am
@daverod69,
We dont 'need' to.
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Sun 11 Jul, 2021 01:02 am
@hightor,
To the scriptural ignorant Christian, Judas Iscariot would be the epitome of evil, what say you should be his punishment for betraying the Lord for thirty pieces of silver?

BTW, there is no eternal torture. The second death, which is that of the spirit that survives the first death, which is that of the physical body=womb, in which the invisible mind=spirit develops, is the eternal punishment for the unrepentant wicked.

Eternal death, total oblivion from which there is no return.
0 Replies
 
joshhuntnm
 
  -2  
Thu 30 Sep, 2021 03:27 am
@Caesar,
people have to ask and receive forgiveness. Just ask. John 1.12
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Thu 30 Sep, 2021 03:35 am
@joshhuntnm,
Are you suggesting that unrepentant sinners who have no intensions of changing their ways, simply have to ask, and they can then enter the promised kingdom?
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Thu 30 Sep, 2021 07:56 am
@The Anointed,
Yes!

Grace is not earned.

Although these sinners probably won't change their ways, accepting Jesus into their lives is a good start.

Jesus talks about the sheep and the goats. Nearly everyone reading the passage about feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting the imprisoned takes it literally. And indeed, it is a very good model to live by. If more people acted this way, the world would be a better place.
However, this starts to fall apart when you read the surrounding passages, and understand who it is that Jesus is talking to.

Jesus is talking to the very judgemental works-based Pharisees. And he is telling them that God should treat them like this master, who also tossed out bridesmaids for being late on account of low oil. And in particular, parable of the talents, this master is seen acting unjustly to the man who saved the talents despite knowing his master is harsh (btw, the investment type that the master asks is actually unlawful for the Jews, meaning this is indeed a very unreasonable master). In other words, this master is not God, but a Pharisee version of God, who has no mercy.
theMadOne
 
  -2  
Thu 30 Sep, 2021 07:59 am
@fredjones,
Churchianity says he NEVER died at all! He was GOD who CAN'T die...among other things....
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 30 Sep, 2021 09:20 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Yes!

Grace is not earned.

Although these sinners probably won't change their ways, accepting Jesus into their lives is a good start.

Jesus talks about the sheep and the goats. Nearly everyone reading the passage about feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting the imprisoned takes it literally. And indeed, it is a very good model to live by. If more people acted this way, the world would be a better place.
However, this starts to fall apart when you read the surrounding passages, and understand who it is that Jesus is talking to.

Jesus is talking to the very judgemental works-based Pharisees. And he is telling them that God should treat them like this master, who also tossed out bridesmaids for being late on account of low oil. And in particular, parable of the talents, this master is seen acting unjustly to the man who saved the talents despite knowing his master is harsh (btw, the investment type that the master asks is actually unlawful for the Jews, meaning this is indeed a very unreasonable master). In other words, this master is not God, but a Pharisee version of God, who has no mercy.


Yeah, Jesus did talk about sheep...and about flocks...and about shepherds.

I wonder if he knew that some day, people who pretend to follow his teachings would end up being the sheep...and the flocks. And I wonder if he knew who or what would be the shepherds.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Sat 9 Oct, 2021 05:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I suppose you think you understand this passage. Let's read the actual passage.

Quote:
Truly, truly I say to you, the one who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2 But the one who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep listen to his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he puts all his own sheep outside, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 However, a stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus told them this figure of speech, but they did not understand what the things which He was saying to them meant.
7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All those who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came so that they would have life, and have it abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters the flock. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me, 15 just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father.”


You probably haven't noticed, but there are actually many characters here.
The sheep, thief, doorkeeper, stranger, wolf, hired hand, and good shepherd. Jesus knew that some of them would come like thieves, and the doorkeeper would shut them out. Others would be like strangers, and the thief would not welcome their message. Still others are like hired hands, claiming to follow the Gospel, but when the going gets tough, they get going. Still others are like wolves, trying to consume the sheep and get rid of them. The good shepherd knows his real sheep and protects them from danger.
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Sun 10 Oct, 2021 12:26 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
Although these sinners probably won't change their ways, accepting Jesus into their lives is a good start.


And what makes you think that the unrepentant sinners are ever going to accept Jesus into their lives?

Quote:
However, this starts to fall apart when you read the surrounding passages, and understand who it is that Jesus is talking to.


Jesus is talking to his disciples starting from Matthew 24: 1; to Matthew 25; 31; and Jesus is referring to the evolving spirit in mankind who is born into the spiritual world when the body in which he developed died, shortly after the great Sabbath of one thousand years had finished, "The Son of Man" who is the MOST HIGH intellect to have evolved in the creation, which creation is the invisible LOGOS God, made manifest.

The time Jesus is referring to in Matthew, is after the thousand years rule of Jesus, when the earth is incinerated by heavenly fire and all physical life forms on this planet are destroyed and the oceans have evaporated, that the "Son of Man" sits in his throne and divides the righteous from the unrepentant wicked.

As revealed in Revelation 21: 1-8; Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth disappeared, and the sea vanished. And I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared and ready, like a bride dressed to meet her husband. I heard a loud voice speaking from the throne: “Now God's home is with human beings! He will live with them, and they shall be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God. He will wipe away all tears from their eyes. There will be no more death, no more grief or crying or pain. The old things have disappeared.”

Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.” And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it. Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children. 8But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practise magic, those who worship idols, and all liars — the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”

And as we have all sinned and must pay the death penalty for the sins of our flesh, then we, the disembodied minds/spirit will go off into Judgement, so too, "The Son of Man" around 2,000 years ago, paid the penalty for the sins of the body in which he developed, when he descended from his heights in time and entered the body of Jesus as he came up out of the baptismal waters, who he chose as his heir and successor, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my Son (My heir and successor) this day I have begotten thee.

It was there in the body of Jesus that the Lord was treated with outrage and hung upon a tree, and when the veil of that temple -body was torn, the spirit of the Lord was poured forth as fire on the heads of those who had believed his words as spoken through his chosen heir, the man Jesus.

While on the cross, when Jesus gave up the spirit, crying; My God, my God why have you abandoned me, the Lord God our saviour who could not actually die, ceased to be an individual entity, by releasing all the spirits of the righteous who had been gathered to him, whose graves were opened then, but it was three days later that they came out of their graves and entered the city and showed themselves as the risen body of our redeemer, whose head was now Jesus.

The author of the book of Hebrews once said; “The Jewish Law is not a full and faithful model of the real things; it is only a faint outline of the good things to come. The same sacrifices are offered for ever, year after year. How can the Law, then, by means of these sacrifices make perfect the people who come to God? If the people worshipping God had really been purified from their sins, they would not feel guilty of sin any more, and all sacrifices would stop. As it is, however, the sacrifices serve year after year to remind people of their sins. For the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins.

For this reason, when the anointed one was about to come into the world, he said to God: “You do not want sacrifices and offerings, but you have prepared a body for me. (That body was the man Jesus) You are not pleased with animals burnt whole on the altar or with sacrifices to take away sins. Then I said, ‘Here I am, to do your will, O God, just as it is written of me in the book of the Law.’ ”

It was not Jesus who died on the cross, it was our Lord God and saviour, The Son of Man, who chose Jesus to sit in his throne for the 3 days or rather the three periods of one thousand years that he had to remain within the inner dimension until he ‘The Son of Man’ would be born with the death of the sinful mother body in which he develops. This is why, 2000 years ago. Jesus was chosen as his heir, to sit in his throne until the close of the great Sabbath of one thousand years, which is about to begin.

Did Jesus really die on the cross, and does it really matter if he didn’t? For the death of a man can only pay the blood price for the life of that man, and we know it was the spiritual Son of man who laid his life down for the sins of the body in which he develops.

Crucifixion resulted in death through anyone of two ways. one way was hypovolemic shock, which can cause fluid to gather in the area around the heart. This is called pericardial effusion..

Another way that death would occur during crucifixion was due to asphyxiation, which occurs when the person is unable to breathe in enough oxygen to survive.

The victim’s weight was inhibiting him to breath and he had to keep pulling himself up with his hands which were nailed to the wooden beam, or pushing up with his feet which were also nailed to the stake.

Eventually, he would no longer be able to push up and due to the lack of Oxygen would pass out and die.

There are those who believe that Jesus did not die, but was unconscious when the Roman soldier came to check. The other two who were crucified with Jesus, were still trying to push themselves up in their attempt to breath, so their legs were broken, and no longer able to breath they died within minutes, but the guard believing that the unconscious Jesus was dead, didn’t bother to break his legs, but instead, shoved a spear into his side, most likely under his ribs, which ruptured the pericardial sack, releasing the water with the blood that was still flowing through his body.

John the beloved disciple was still there and later recorded the fact that both blood and water flowed from the body of Jesus. Shortly after that, Joseph and Nicodemus took the body down and buried it in the cave just as the sun was setting on Wednesday afternoon.

How long after the heart stops beating does the blood stop flowing? It only takes three to four minutes for the person to become brain dead due to a lack of oxygen.

But, as said previously, it doesn’t matter that he didn’t die, because his death could not pay the blood price for the human race.

He had to convince his disciples who thought that he was a ghost, that he was not a spiritual being and that he was still a human of flesh and blood, by eating the food they offered him, but we also know that he was later translated as were Enoch and Elijah, and ascended to the heavenly throne of our Father.

bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Sun 10 Oct, 2021 01:29 am
@The Anointed,
Jesus IS the Son of Man.

Or rather was, while in human flesh.

He did not let anyone sacrifice for him. That's a heresy you seem to have in common with the Muslims. But most of the Muslims are given over as slaves of Satan.

It very much does matter that Jesus Christ died for our sins.

The sins of the world made life a living Hell. To understand why, you must understand that Satan is a manifestation of our Knowledge of Good and Evil.

There is only the Trinity. The Father, who is the Divine form of God, the Creator of all things. The Holy Spirit, the Soul that is spread to all people (and probably all living things), the God that is within us. And Jesus (or whatever you want to call him, since after his death, that name doesn't mean the same), the human Being of God. It is through Jesus that were are able to talk to God directly. This is what "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" means, not some "only Christianity got it right, sorry guys, you aren't part of the club you lose." It literally means, that Jesus is the way to talk to God. You cannot talk to God through the Buddha, or Muhammad, or whatever. Jesus might have appeared to some of these and they called him something different. But Jesus is a personal relationship with God. No matter what group, God designs that all of us are able to meet Jesus.
He also designs that government is sick and corrupt, and will eventually fail hard. It may not necessarily happen on this Earth. All of us may die first. So what do I mean that Satan is part of our Knowledge of Good and Evil? Simply this, Satan is an Accuser. He shows you as your worst self, and he shows this world as its worst self. This is a courtroom of sorts. And Jesus as an Advocate shows the best. Knowledge of Good and Evil is a parlor trick that convinces us that we are seeing two separate entities, and most Christians can't let go of this dichotomy (studying Taoism pays). Actually, it's a kangaroo court, in your favor. God wants us to understand that we are accused as sinners, but we are also forgiven. It's part of the same equation.

So no, there isn't a Hell, everyone. There's just your mind and the Hell it can invent. I have been in a hell of my own loneliness and depression for years, and pulled myself out many times. Now it's time for you guys to come out too.

Some people are in there because of their obedience to people they have no business obeying. Others because they don't understand that Christians are not condemning them, confusing tough love for "hate". Still others because they can't let go of their guilt. But the door is wide open.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sun 10 Oct, 2021 05:20 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


I suppose you think you understand this passage. Let's read the actual passage.

Quote:
Truly, truly I say to you, the one who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2 But the one who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep listen to his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he puts all his own sheep outside, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 However, a stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus told them this figure of speech, but they did not understand what the things which He was saying to them meant.
7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All those who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came so that they would have life, and have it abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters the flock. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me, 15 just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father.”


You probably haven't noticed, but there are actually many characters here.
The sheep, thief, doorkeeper, stranger, wolf, hired hand, and good shepherd. Jesus knew that some of them would come like thieves, and the doorkeeper would shut them out. Others would be like strangers, and the thief would not welcome their message. Still others are like hired hands, claiming to follow the Gospel, but when the going gets tough, they get going. Still others are like wolves, trying to consume the sheep and get rid of them. The good shepherd knows his real sheep and protects them from danger.


Right you are. You and the people like you are the sheep...and the shepherd not only "protects you from danger"...but tells you where and when to go...and what and when to do it.

And keep in mind that "wool" is not the only thing a shepherd wants from his "protected" sheep. Often the shepherd wants to sell his sheep to someone who wants stew.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Mon 11 Oct, 2021 06:54 am
@Frank Apisa,
Are you serious?

The problem with this rather paranoid analogy, is that the good shepherd is not a good shepherd because he wants to sell them for food (this is the hired hand, there to make money), but actually himself was sacrificed. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep. Or rather is called the Lamb of God. In other words, in a meat market, this is a shepherd with the head of a sheep. The butcher will point directly to the shepherd and say, "This one looks like the biggest." A pretty good incentive not to go there.

Also, historically, people ate mutton, not lamb, and didn't have sick commercial meat markets, but rather used wool. Animals were typically used when they were old and weren't any good for anything else (people die, get over it). This was more to do with cost effectiveness than affection, but plenty of people did grow attached. It was not cost effective to only raise an animal a short time, and cut out all of its work (strictly speaking, it is not cost effective now either, they cut out alot of profit, and often use an excessive amount in hormones to try to get it to grow abnormally, while Kobe beef is typically raised an extra long time to get fuller flavor and sells for a fortune. American beef usually is fatty but rather bland because all the tricks to force market weight ruin its flavor. https://www.mashed.com/159151/the-untold-truth-of-kobe-beef/ ). This was before tractors, so people used animals. Male cattle were used to plow, female for milk. Sheep were used primarily for wool, unless they were Passover sacrifices. We have Nathan's story of man with many sheep, while a man next door has only one but loves it almost like a wife.

You think that because there is death, God is cruel. But in the first place, you don't believe in life after death, so all you see is the cruelty, which you kinda sentence to everyone who buys your story. Death is part of life, as is birth.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 11 Oct, 2021 11:17 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:
Are you serious?



I am serious as a heart attack, Bulma.

Quote:

The problem with this rather paranoid analogy, is that the good shepherd is not a good shepherd because he wants to sell them for food (this is the hired hand, there to make money), but actually himself was sacrificed. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep. Or rather is called the Lamb of God. In other words, in a meat market, this is a shepherd with the head of a sheep. The butcher will point directly to the shepherd and say, "This one looks like the biggest." A pretty good incentive not to go there.

Also, historically, people ate mutton, not lamb, and didn't have sick commercial meat markets, but rather used wool. Animals were typically used when they were old and weren't any good for anything else (people die, get over it). This was more to do with cost effectiveness than affection, but plenty of people did grow attached. It was not cost effective to only raise an animal a short time, and cut out all of its work (strictly speaking, it is not cost effective now either, they cut out alot of profit, and often use an excessive amount in hormones to try to get it to grow abnormally, while Kobe beef is typically raised an extra long time to get fuller flavor and sells for a fortune. American beef usually is fatty but rather bland because all the tricks to force market weight ruin its flavor. https://www.mashed.com/159151/the-untold-truth-of-kobe-beef/ ). This was before tractors, so people used animals. Male cattle were used to plow, female for milk. Sheep were used primarily for wool, unless they were Passover sacrifices. We have Nathan's story of man with many sheep, while a man next door has only one but loves it almost like a wife.


Blah, blah, blah, blah...and blah.

Lots of words. Very little content.



Quote:
You think that because there is death, God is cruel.


Where do you get this **** from?

Do you just sit there and think things up...and then post what you made up out of thin air?

Where have I ever said or inferred that "because there is death, God is cruel?"

Where have I ever said or inferred that I think there is a "God" who would be "cruel" because there is death?

NEVER, EVER, ANYWHERE IN THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF POSTS I HAVE MADE HERE IN THIS FORUM...OR ANY OF THE OTHER FORA IN WHICH I POST...HAVE I EVER DONE SUCH A THING.


Quote:
But in the first place, you don't believe in life after death, so all you see is the cruelty, which you kinda sentence to everyone who buys your story. Death is part of life, as is birth.


What on Earth are you raving on about?

Jesus H. Christ...quote something I have actually written...and then comment on that. Stop making **** up and then arguing against it. You are terrible at making stuff up...and you are even worse at arguing against what you invent.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Mon 11 Oct, 2021 08:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Where have I ever said or inferred that I think there is a "God" who would be "cruel" because there is death?

NEVER, EVER, ANYWHERE IN THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF POSTS I HAVE MADE HERE IN THIS FORUM...OR ANY OF THE OTHER FORA IN WHICH I POST...HAVE I EVER DONE SUCH A THING.


Quote:
And keep in mind that "wool" is not the only thing a shepherd wants from his "protected" sheep. Often the shepherd wants to sell his sheep to someone who wants stew.


You main point to this appears to be that this shepherd actually wants to kill off his followers. To sell them out for money to someone who wants to eat them.

By extension, you see death as a betrayal, and proof that this Jesus fellow cannot be trusted. If I am following this line of thought correctly.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2021 02:39 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Quote:
Where have I ever said or inferred that I think there is a "God" who would be "cruel" because there is death?

NEVER, EVER, ANYWHERE IN THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF POSTS I HAVE MADE HERE IN THIS FORUM...OR ANY OF THE OTHER FORA IN WHICH I POST...HAVE I EVER DONE SUCH A THING.


Quote:
And keep in mind that "wool" is not the only thing a shepherd wants from his "protected" sheep. Often the shepherd wants to sell his sheep to someone who wants stew.


You main point to this appears to be that this shepherd actually wants to kill off his followers. To sell them out for money to someone who wants to eat them.

By extension, you see death as a betrayal, and proof that this Jesus fellow cannot be trusted. If I am following this line of thought correctly.


You have not followed any line of thought correctly...not mine nor anyone else's...for as long as we have been speaking, Bulma.

You are one of the most stone-headed individuals I've ever dealt with in this forum.

You seem to want to interpret the things people say in the most bizarre ways possible. You distort damn near every conversation in which you are participant.

So, NO, you are NOT even coming close to following my line of reasoning.

Next question.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Tue 12 Oct, 2021 07:04 am
@Frank Apisa,
I can break walls with my forehead!

So, then the next question is what exactly did you mean by that? Because it appears as though Young Master Agnostic is playing "wolf" in this story, trying to undermine the creed of the sheep by accusing their master.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Tue 12 Oct, 2021 08:11 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

I can break walls with my forehead!


Accepted without question. Wink

Quote:
So, then the next question is what exactly did you mean by that? Because it appears as though Young Master Agnostic is playing "wolf" in this story, trying to undermine the creed of the sheep by accusing their master.


I do not know what the **** you are talking about. Actually say something clearly for a change.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Thu 14 Oct, 2021 07:22 am
@Frank Apisa,
Simple. The good shepherd story has loads of characters, including the wolf. Are you a wolf here, trying to attack the shepherd?

Does this fresh meat (holds and shakes) interest you?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Thu 14 Oct, 2021 08:43 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

Simple. The good shepherd story has loads of characters, including the wolf. Are you a wolf here, trying to attack the shepherd?


I am not a wolf...I am a poster in an Internet forum.

Apparently some of the things I am saying disturb you.

Great. Disturbing people who think the way you do...is one of my intentions. My hope is they will deal with their mythology in a more adult fashion.

Quote:

Does this fresh meat (holds and shakes) interest you?


I gotcha fresh meat right heah.
NealNealNeal
 
  -2  
Thu 14 Oct, 2021 03:51 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Satan has his meat too---both fresh and spoiled.
 

Related Topics

700 Inconsistencies in the Bible - Discussion by onevoice
Why do we deliberately fool ourselves? - Discussion by coincidence
Spirituality - Question by Miller
Oneness vs. Trinity - Discussion by Arella Mae
give you chills - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence for Evolution! - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence of God! - Discussion by Bartikus
One World Order?! - Discussion by Bartikus
God loves us all....!? - Discussion by Bartikus
The Preambles to Our States - Discussion by Charli
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.08 seconds on 11/14/2024 at 10:21:19