80
   

If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2021 03:48 am
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:

Satan has his meat too---both fresh and spoiled.


Yeah, you are right.

So did Hannibal Lecter in his story...

...although Goldilocks had to be satisfied with porridge.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2021 05:55 am
@Frank Apisa,
(Richard Nixon impression)

I am not a wolf!

(Sorry, I can't stop laughing)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2021 09:03 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

(Richard Nixon impression)

I am not a wolf!

(Sorry, I can't stop laughing)


Great. Laughing is deemed to be good for your health.

In any case, I am not a wolf. I am, as I said, a person posting in an Internet forum.
0 Replies
 
Rose Marie
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2021 11:07 pm
@Caesar,
Jesus did not die for “all” but only for those whom he has redeemed with his blood
Leadfoot
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 06:02 am
@Rose Marie,
Welcome Rose.

Fresh meat for the wolves!
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 07:22 am
@Rose Marie,
I would disagree.

One of the prayers says, "and not for our sins only (i.e. the church) but for the sins of the whole world." That is, the implication here is not just that Christ died on behalf of NealNealNeal, Leadfoot, me, and you. But also on behalf of izzythepush, Frank Apisa, and some of the other agnost/ atheists of this forum, in addition to Buddhists, Muslims, etc who will probably never respect Jesus. (Btw, it annoys the hell out of some of them, so they make mental gymnastics as to why it doesn't apply to them, including reading my words as somehow hateful)

When Jesus says, "I Am the Way, the Truth, the Life. No one comes to the Father but through me," a common misunderstanding is to believe this is a statement of Christian exclusivity , that the only way to be saved is by converting to Christianity. But this implies some rather nasty things. First, that God did not reveal himself to all the rest of the world. Yes some religions are false, but most of the major ones do have divine inspiriration. And second, which Christianity is saved? Because all of us have fallen short, all of our faith systems do too. This means nobody is saved, that Christ died for nothing. This is unacceptable. God desires that all might be saved, according to the Bible.

Not all of Christianity. All. Jesus says in one of his lessons about sheep, "And I have other sheep who are not part of the flock." He then discusses his intention to bring them into his flock. These many religions are by design, with different core focuses. For most of history, such differences didn't matter. But it is God's intention to bring these all into relationship with God.

People understand the significance of the cross, butr there was another symbol in the crucifixion story that they forget. The Temple curtain. This curtain was a sign of separation from God, that only the priests were worthy enough to go inside the Temple, behind the curtain and speak with God. When Christ died, this curtain was torn from the top. Not where humans could reach, but where it could only be said to be an omen from God. The separation no longer existed.

God was able to talk personally with all of humanity. This wasn't meant just for priests anymore, and it certainly wasn't only Christians, though they are the chosen people to spread the word. No one comes to the Father but through Jesus, because Jesus is Emmanuel (God With Us). God is now inside of humanity. That is precisely why mask mandates are so abhorrent. It prevents the face of God from being seen in humanity. It is another curtain. A Third Temple, if you will.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 07:36 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

I would disagree.

One of the prayers says, "and not for our sins only (i.e. the church) but for the sins of the whole world." That is, the implication here is not just that Christ died on behalf of NealNealNeal, Leadfoot, me, and you. But also on behalf of izzythepush, Frank Apisa, and some of the other agnost/ atheists of this forum, in addition to Buddhists, Muslims, etc who will probably never respect Jesus. (Btw, it annoys the hell out of some of them, so they make mental gymnastics as to why it doesn't apply to them, including reading my words as somehow hateful)


I am saying that ALL of your suppositions about "why Jesus died" and "for whom he died" are predicated on your original BLIND GUESS that there is a GOD...and that the GOD is the kind of god you want to suppose it to be.

You are basing EVERYTHING you post...on that predicate, which IS A BLIND GUESS...no better than a coin toss.

Quote:
When Jesus says, "I Am the Way, the Truth, the Life. No one comes to the Father but through me," a common misunderstanding is to believe this is a statement of Christian exclusivity , that the only way to be saved is by converting to Christianity. But this implies some rather nasty things. First, that God did not reveal himself to all the rest of the world. Yes some religions are false, but most of the major ones do have divine inspiriration. And second, which Christianity is saved? Because all of us have fallen short, all of our faith systems do too. This means nobody is saved, that Christ died for nothing. This is unacceptable. God desires that all might be saved, according to the Bible.


ALL OF THIS...based on a blind guess.

Quote:
Not all of Christianity. All. Jesus says in one of his lessons about sheep, "And I have other sheep who are not part of the flock." He then discusses his intention to bring them into his flock. These many religions are by design, with different core focuses. For most of history, such differences didn't matter. But it is God's intention to bring these all into relationship with God.


A rare moment of complete agreement.

PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE SHEEP.

Quote:
People understand the significance of the cross, butr there was another symbol in the crucifixion story that they forget. The Temple curtain. This curtain was a sign of separation from God, that only the priests were worthy enough to go inside the Temple, behind the curtain and speak with God. When Christ died, this curtain was torn from the top. Not where humans could reach, but where it could only be said to be an omen from God. The separation no longer existed.

God was able to talk personally with all of humanity. This wasn't meant just for priests anymore, and it certainly wasn't only Christians, though they are the chosen people to spread the word. No one comes to the Father but through Jesus, because Jesus is Emmanuel (God With Us). God is now inside of humanity. That is precisely why mask mandates are so abhorrent. It prevents the face of God from being seen in humanity. It is another curtain. A Third Temple, if you will.


Gotta wonder if any of your blind guesses are correct...starting with the initial one...that there is a single GOD...and that you KNOW what pleases and offends it.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 12:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
This is a baaaaaaaaad argument.

Since you seem to know that everything is a blind guess, let's have you answer the question. After all, you say that I can't be sure there even was a Jesus. That I definitely can't be sure there is a God. That I can't be sure Jesus died on a cross. And I can't be sure there isn't a Hell.

So if I can't be sure of any of this, why is the question relevant enough to you for you to be involved?
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 12:09 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

This is a baaaaaaaaad argument.


No argument I make is a bad argument.

Quote:
Since you seem to know that everything is a blind guess let's have you answer the question. After all, you say that I can't be sure there even was a Jesus. That I definitely can't be sure there is a God. That I can't be sure Jesus died on a cross. And I can't be sure there isn't a Hell.

So if I can't be sure of any of this, why is the question relevant enough to you for you to be involved?


What are you babbling about?

Because YOU are not sure of something...that means I must consider the topic to be irrelevant? That I should not be involved?

Sonny, I will be "involved" with anything I want to be involved with...and the fact that you are mostly full of...soup...does not impact on it.

Now...try growing up a bit.

0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2021 01:23 pm
Frank may have trouble dealing with the hypothetical.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2021 12:56 am
@Leadfoot,
He may have trouble with a lot of things.

I was watching a Monk episode, and because it brought up a doctor who was kinda arrogant and dismissive (I've seen that doctor's complex enough), I asked the internet. "Internet," said I, "why are doctors such arrogant assholes?"

Internet said, "Beep boop beep," and spat out this article...
Quote:
A Large Ego Is a Cover-Up
Psychologists will tell you that someone who acts arrogant or superior, does so because he lacks self-confidence. Instead of truly feeling superior, he instead, truly feels inferior. So he'll use intimidation, or act conceited to cover up that lack of self-esteem. In the schoolyard, this healthcare provider was a bully. In a medical setting, that bully's intimidation takes the form of arrogance.

Quote:
This healthcare provider will think that everything he tells you is the best answer. When it comes to asking smart questions, or sharing information you've learned about your condition, know that Dr. Arrogant may resist the discussion, ignore you, or get angry. If that happens, smooth out the conversation by stating that you understand what he's explained to you, and that he can create a win-win for both of you by explaining this additional information


I understand everything you've explained to me, Frank. And I'd love to hear additional information about the topic. Please, tell me more!
Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2021 05:57 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
(I've seen that doctor's complex enough), I asked the internet. "Internet," said I, "why are doctors such arrogant assholes?"

Oh boy, the stories I could tell about doctors.

Whenever I hear Dr. Fauci talk it gives me flashbacks to that kind of arrogant fool.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2021 06:38 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


He may have trouble with a lot of things.

I was watching a Monk episode, and because it brought up a doctor who was kinda arrogant and dismissive (I've seen that doctor's complex enough), I asked the internet. "Internet," said I, "why are doctors such arrogant assholes?"

Internet said, "Beep boop beep," and spat out this article...
Quote:
A Large Ego Is a Cover-Up
Psychologists will tell you that someone who acts arrogant or superior, does so because he lacks self-confidence. Instead of truly feeling superior, he instead, truly feels inferior. So he'll use intimidation, or act conceited to cover up that lack of self-esteem. In the schoolyard, this healthcare provider was a bully. In a medical setting, that bully's intimidation takes the form of arrogance.

Quote:
This healthcare provider will think that everything he tells you is the best answer. When it comes to asking smart questions, or sharing information you've learned about your condition, know that Dr. Arrogant may resist the discussion, ignore you, or get angry. If that happens, smooth out the conversation by stating that you understand what he's explained to you, and that he can create a win-win for both of you by explaining this additional information


I understand everything you've explained to me, Frank. And I'd love to hear additional information about the topic. Please, tell me more!


The main thing I have explained to you is that you are blindly guessing that a god exists...and you MAY be correct. A god MAY exist. But that is actually saying that you MAY be wrong. No gods MAY exist.

You insist that you KNOW a god exists.

You insist that you KNOW the nature of that god...particularly that it can be please or offended by what humans do. And you also insist that you KNOW what pleases it and what offends it.

Explaining that is just my way of explaining, in a nice way, that you are full of ****.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2021 07:37 am
Telling others what what they can and cannot know again, my God, the arrogance.

I wonder, Is Frank a doctor?
bulmabriefs144
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2021 08:30 pm
@Leadfoot,
I don't know honestly.

I have been told that he is 85 and apparently "very successful" and "pretty happy".

As if you can measure happiness by worldly success. I only have about $1800 to my name, and I'm often unemployed. By the standards of the world, I am a loser. But I have a family that loves me, and a God that I love (who may or may not love me back, given the somewhat tsundere relationship that I have with the religious world). I cannot boast of my success, only of how God has taken care of someone almost penniless like me.

When I do ask Frank about his background, he dodges the question. Embarrassment? Not that any of us needs to be embarrassed. The secular world ties their worth in their success, yet they are ashamed when it comes to God. But all of that is just stuff. Everything from credentials (my grandma was a math teacher, but she got old and senile and couldn't even do simple math), to the money you work for (inflation devalues it all), to the stuff you buy (it breaks), and even your own body is perishable.
Why then should you be proud of the work you have done, and embarrassed of the Gospel? Love, friendship, and faith. These are things that money can't buy. Frank could throw all the money he had at me, but he couldn't make me like him. Actually being more personable? That doesn't cost a thing.

Returning to topic. "If Jesus died to forgive is, why is there a hell?" When we are arrogant of the things in our lives and do not value people, we are in Hell. Hell is not about the Afterlife, it is about the state of our lives. When we reject other people and build walls, our lives become pitiful. All the stuff in the world cannot make us less miserable. When we learn how to reach out to others, religion or not, we are bound for Heaven. Frank is focusing on the idea of religion as some spiritual mumbo-jumbo, and not getting the key part.
Religion. Some people hear the "bind together" word origin, and misunderstand it to be about control. No, bind together, as in re-connecting. Ligament has the same word root. It is what joins bones together.

There are several demons that possess the human spirit. These are sometimes synonymous with delusion or mental disorder. But a more accurate way of looking at this is that these are ways that we dis-connect. For example, a person too addicted to control is used to ordering people around, so they seldom get meaningful relationships. Or someone affected by fear is afraid to go out and meet people. Or someone affected by anger is mean to the people who might otherwise help them. This fear that has infected everyone, it is a great delusion. It pushes people outside who would otherwise be welcome in shops, in churches, in schools. The price of all of this is borne by those who see rejection wherever they go. Being affected by demons is a literal disorder of the mind.

https://www.daughterofthelilies.com/comics/1509831192-3-34.jpg
https://www.daughterofthelilies.com/comics/1509831200-3-35.jpg
https://www.daughterofthelilies.com/comics/1509831251-3-38.jpg
(All credit goes to Meg Syv, this is for explanation purposes only. Note how demons consume the person, making them into the thing they hate the most about themselves)

At the most demon-possessed, a person can hear someone tell them that everyone basically wants the same things and that we should learn to live together, and hears that person as being hateful and bigoted. This is your brain on sin. Rachel Leigh Cook wants to know if you have any questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE7ukc7MV-k
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2021 05:19 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


I don't know honestly.

I have been told that he is 85 and apparently "very successful" and "pretty happy".

As if you can measure happiness by worldly success. I only have about $1800 to my name, and I'm often unemployed. By the standards of the world, I am a loser. But I have a family that loves me, and a God that I love (who may or may not love me back, given the somewhat tsundere relationship that I have with the religious world). I cannot boast of my success, only of how God has taken care of someone almost penniless like me.

When I do ask Frank about his background, he dodges the question. Embarrassment? Not that any of us needs to be embarrassed. The secular world ties their worth in their success, yet they are ashamed when it comes to God. But all of that is just stuff. Everything from credentials (my grandma was a math teacher, but she got old and senile and couldn't even do simple math), to the money you work for (inflation devalues it all), to the stuff you buy (it breaks), and even your own body is perishable.
Why then should you be proud of the work you have done, and embarrassed of the Gospel? Love, friendship, and faith. These are things that money can't buy. Frank could throw all the money he had at me, but he couldn't make me like him. Actually being more personable? That doesn't cost a thing.

Returning to topic. "If Jesus died to forgive is, why is there a hell?" When we are arrogant of the things in our lives and do not value people, we are in Hell. Hell is not about the Afterlife, it is about the state of our lives. When we reject other people and build walls, our lives become pitiful. All the stuff in the world cannot make us less miserable. When we learn how to reach out to others, religion or not, we are bound for Heaven. Frank is focusing on the idea of religion as some spiritual mumbo-jumbo, and not getting the key part.
Religion. Some people hear the "bind together" word origin, and misunderstand it to be about control. No, bind together, as in re-connecting. Ligament has the same word root. It is what joins bones together.

There are several demons that possess the human spirit. These are sometimes synonymous with delusion or mental disorder. But a more accurate way of looking at this is that these are ways that we dis-connect. For example, a person too addicted to control is used to ordering people around, so they seldom get meaningful relationships. Or someone affected by fear is afraid to go out and meet people. Or someone affected by anger is mean to the people who might otherwise help them. This fear that has infected everyone, it is a great delusion. It pushes people outside who would otherwise be welcome in shops, in churches, in schools. The price of all of this is borne by those who see rejection wherever they go. Being affected by demons is a literal disorder of the mind.



You are such a phony...and such a liar, I wonder how you can claim to be religious.

One: For the majority of my life, I have lived at or very near the poverty level. Money simply is not a motivator for me...neither are the baubles and pretty things that most people seem to treasure.

Two: You have NEVER asked me a question about myself that I have not answered. NEVER!

Get off your bullshit for just while...and post something truthful. You will be amazed at how happy it will make you feel.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2021 05:41 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Two: You have NEVER asked me a question about myself that I have not answered. NEVER!

Glad he didn’t say that to me, I’d a had to say somp'n not nice.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2021 06:04 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
I have been told that he is 85 and apparently "very successful" and "pretty happy".

I’d believe him about age and fiscal success, but at this time not so much about happy. I say that based on how I felt during the two weeks or so that I was in doubt about God, or at least what kind of God he was.

If you are serious about 'God' as Frank says he is, I found life intolerable to the point of suicide while in that uncertainty, so the 'happy' part is suspect. But I think I understand his mental dilemma. You look around at your life and see that you have everything in this life, friends, family, no financial worries, your favorite toys and pastimes that are the envy of most around, and you tell yourself - “There is NO reason for me to be unhappy”.

I still have to do that myself once in awhile, but that’s because I’m impatient to move on to what’s next. Then I’m thankful that I’m old.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2021 08:40 am
@Frank Apisa,
Actually I asked plenty of indirect questions trying to gauge at your background , why you think what you do. I have never gotten any closer to understanding you than knowing you like to repeat the tired "blind guesses" statement and keep me in the dark about your past.
You're welcome to tell me now. But usually it's the same dumb story. "I always knew this was the case" as if ideas can just kinda arrive without any experience attached to them.

You're missing the point. It's a life that ultimately dies with you. Whether you're rich now or poor, after you die, if you don't have children or a wife all that you worked for goes to nothing. And I kinda envision you as someone with a dog, no kids, and no lady. You say that you are not attached to it, but when I talked earlier about how there isn't any way you're happy knowing that you'll die one day, you told me how "happy" you were, and your material goods were clearly a component of this. Talking about how you'd lived a long and successful life, and just look at the wealth you have. Clearly you're living right. Yeah, that's kinda what you said.

One last thing. All of us are frauds in some way. I have renounced work for money, because I want to only work for God. But this doesn't mean I don't have cases of wanting this or that thing. You think you're an honest person and other people are fake. But that's a one-sided load of crap. Without exception, all of us are deeply flawed in some way. And all of us have merit that God likes about us.
Pretending your **** doesn't stink while ignoring that God is the one blessing you is precisely the problem. **** by definition, does stink.

@Leadfoot, I cannot call myself happy either. I've struggled with depression because I shouldn't be happy by the standards of others. No gf right now, no job, no real ambitions. But you know, most days, things work out okay. And those standards don't really define us. Btw, some of the elite wealthy apparently have a problem with extreme ennui and poor coping.
https://business.time.com/2012/11/08/why-suicides-are-more-common-in-richer-neighborhoods/
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/suicide-rate-rich-neighborhoods_n_2102777
So yeah, thinking you have everything, you must be happy isn't a given.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2021 09:11 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Actually I asked plenty of indirect questions trying to gauge at your background , why you think what you do. I have never gotten any closer to understanding you than knowing you like to repeat the tired "blind guesses" statement and keep me in the dark about your past.
You're welcome to tell me now. But usually it's the same dumb story. "I always knew this was the case" as if ideas can just kinda arrive without any experience attached to them.

You're missing the point. It's a life that ultimately dies with you. Whether you're rich now or poor, after you die, if you don't have children or a wife all that you worked for goes to nothing. And I kinda envision you as someone with a dog, no kids, and no lady. You say that you are not attached to it, but when I talked earlier about how there isn't any way you're happy knowing that you'll die one day, you told me how "happy" you were, and your material goods were clearly a component of this. Talking about how you'd lived a long and successful life, and just look at the wealth you have. Clearly you're living right. Yeah, that's kinda what you said.

One last thing. All of us are frauds in some way. I have renounced work for money, because I want to only work for God. But this doesn't mean I don't have cases of wanting this or that thing. You think you're an honest person and other people are fake. But that's a one-sided load of crap. Without exception, all of us are deeply flawed in some way. And all of us have merit that God likes about us.
Pretending your **** doesn't stink while ignoring that God is the one blessing you is precisely the problem. **** by definition, does stink.

@Leadfoot, I cannot call myself happy either. I've struggled with depression because I shouldn't be happy by the standards of others. No gf right now, no job, no real ambitions. But you know, most days, things work out okay. And those standards don't really define us. Btw, some of the elite wealthy apparently have a problem with extreme ennui and poor coping.
https://business.time.com/2012/11/08/why-suicides-are-more-common-in-richer-neighborhoods/
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/suicide-rate-rich-neighborhoods_n_2102777
So yeah, thinking you have everything, you must be happy isn't a given.


Ask any questions you want to ask. It would be more ethical to do that rather than asserting that I have dodged questions you have not asked...not that I suspect you have much in the way of ethical considerations.

So...instead of babbling...ASK YOUR QUESTIONS.
 

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