74
   

If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2021 03:11 pm
@Leadfoot,
A depiction of purgatory combined the two. Purgatory was supposed t9 be every bit as bad as Hell with one difference, the punishment was finite, but it could still last thousands of years. Which always made me wonder what Heaven would be like with everyone suffering PTSD from bloody Purgatory.

Anyway, the description was of souls jumping between two extremes of hot and cold each being unbearable, hence all the jumping.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2021 05:06 pm
@izzythepush,
The composers for the books of the bible were very creative with great imagination. Their problem have now been revealed; too many errors, omissions, and contradictions, beginning with the creation and age of planet earth. A 2,000 year old god just doesn't make the logic cut when homo sapiens have been around for over 200,000 years. Modern Human Brains Have Only Been Around For a Surprisingly ...
Homo sapiens have been around for about 200,000 years. But our modern-shaped human brains may have only come into existence about 40,000 years ago, researchers say. The rounder, bigger brain shape that researchers have tracked lines up with when people started heading out of the cave, developing tools, language, and self-awareness.
Modern Human Brains Have Only Been Around For a Surprisingly ...
www.sciencealert.com/the-modern-human-brain-may-only-be-40-000-years-old-scientists-s
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2021 07:05 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Modern Human Brains Have Only Been Around For a Surprisingly ...

www.sciencealert.com/the-modern-human-brain-may-only-be-40-000-years-old-scientists-s
. Boy, that Evolution **** is work'n faster all the time!

As Darwin himself admitted, if it didn’t happen gradually over eons, then his theory is all wrong.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2021 10:18 am
If you accept the first words of the Bible it seems to me to be logical that you would accept the rest of it. If you don't, you don't. It seems everybody and their brother has different interpretations and cites all kind of learned books on the subject. But in the end it is all about what you believe when you read the words of any religious text. Not saying it is a virtue, just a state of what your beliefs are.

My own particular belief of the title is simply, Jesus died because it was foretold there was going to be a coming messiah who die for our sins, rather like the sacrifices of old. Only Jesus's sacrifice was a one time deal because only divinity could be without sins to be acceptable as a sacrifice. If having heard the gospel and (the good news) you accept it as a the Word of God, and you repent of sins and be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost, you will be lost in sin if you reject it. Jesus was the (is) the way to heaven rather than hell or whatever you want to call it.

As I said, that is my own particular belief that I believe in. All the rest religion debate is confusing and really has no real answers for me.

Moreover, I don't believe in compulsion or forcing my beliefs on anyone else, even within my own church I have differences of opinions and some of I just can't come to a satisfactory answer. Nonetheless...
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 05:53 am
@revelette3,
Quote:
But in the end it is all about what you believe when you read the words of any religious text.
I would agree, but only when read in light of ones reasoning ability, experience and objectivity/lack of bias.

But that’s probably what you meant? as opposed to 'taking it on faith'.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 06:50 am
@Leadfoot,
Fire is eternal, on the other hand it's effects are temporal, and this is extrapolatable to spiritual terms. Impressive tortured interpretation.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 06:54 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Impressive tortured interpretation.

Interesting that you consider the application of Reason, experience and objectivity as ‘tortured'. Is it that way for you?
I always regarded them as pleasurable.
revelette3
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 08:28 am
@Leadfoot,
I don't know for sure if logic is really involved unless you actually believe in what you read in the first place. I mean if you start to base your belief on logic, all those questions such as why is evil acceptable by God or how can homosexuals who are born that way be committing a sin if they are intimate (lay with another man like a woman or visa versa). I mean the questions are endless with really no logical answers other than a faith in God that he knows what he is doing and is it the way it is supposed to be and there is a reason for it all that we might not understand.


Quote:
John 3
9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 7


Moreover, I know this answer is not acceptable in debate about religious and whether it is all bunk or not, so it is kind of useless to argue for it. I had been there and done that as we used to say.

On the other hand among fellow believers it is nice to debate about various meanings we get from the Bible or whatever religious text the believer wants to bring up. Sometimes you might even learn something you didn't know before, but I admit seldom.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 11:44 am
@revelette3,
Quote:
I don't know for sure if logic is really involved unless you actually believe in what you read in the first place. I mean if you start to base your belief on logic, all those questions such as why is evil acceptable by God or how can homosexuals who are born that way be committing a sin if they are intimate (lay with another man like a woman or visa versa). I mean the questions are endless with really no logical answers other than a faith in God that he knows what he is doing and is it the way it is supposed to be and there is a reason for it all that we might not understand.
If we lack a logical answer ourselves for any question, I agree. As believers, what else can we do but follow the written advice he gave us. But I think we give up too soon. Many of the things I first thought were impossible were actually only incredibly hard and painful. The fear of that makes the 'impossible' hypothesis attractive sometimes. For me too. But this probably isn’t the place to get into the examples you brought up.

Other than that, everything else you said was 5 star stuff to me.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2021 08:03 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Impressive tortured interpretation.

Interesting that you consider the application of Reason, experience and objectivity as ‘tortured'. Is it that way for you?
I always regarded them as pleasurable.

You're misunderstanding the sense of the word "tortured" here. What I see is subjectively unreasoned rationalization.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2021 05:05 am
@InfraBlue,
I understood it just fine.

You are welcome to point out anything you think is 'unreasoned rationalization' in my reasoning.
If you are intellectually honest, it is your duty to do so.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 04:17 am
@revelette3,
Actually, we have a clear reason that Jesus died. But it's not the one everyone understands.

There are actually two reasons that Jesus died.

First, Jesus himself gives us the answer. "For just as Moses lifted up the serpent, so also the Son of Man must be lifted up." Reading back about Moses, we find a rather strange passage. The Jews were getting bitten by venomous snakes after constant complaining. So God literally instructs Moses to make an idol. The Jew look at the snake on a pole symbol and they become healed. Likewise, Jesus is intended to be raised (on the cross ) to draw attention to how God took our sins on to himself.

I personally don't think Jesus's status as Messiah is relevant. The Jews deny it, and what is more relevant is that he is something else entirely. A Savior.

Okay, so I promised two reasons. The second is hinted several times but never said. Jesus is Emmanuel, "God with us." This means that his entire life was to show that God came to be a part of humanity. Unlike most people, I do not believe it was necessary for God to die on the cross. In order to do what he really came to do, which is "tear down the curtain" between God and man, he simply had to (1) be born and (2) die. Doing this would be enough to ensure that human beings would have the ability to experience Heaven, and to be reconnected with God. The problem is, humans need atonement, and such and action does no good to those trapped in sin. So Jesus needed to be a sacrifice, in order to draw attention to the fact that our sins are being forgiven. That someone has paid the price. It wasn't that Jesus had to die on the cross for our sins. He could have chosen any death. It's that this was the best option to remind us that he took the curse of the law for us.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 04:35 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Actually, we have a clear reason that Jesus died. But it's not the one everyone understands.

There are actually two reasons that Jesus died.

First, Jesus himself gives us the answer. "For just as Moses lifted up the serpent, so also the Son of Man must be lifted up." Reading back about Moses, we find a rather strange passage. The Jews were getting bitten by venomous snakes after constant complaining. So God literally instructs Moses to make an idol. The Jew look at the snake on a pole symbol and they become healed. Likewise, Jesus is intended to be raised (on the cross ) to draw attention to how God took our sins on to himself.

I personally don't think Jesus's status as Messiah is relevant. The Jews deny it, and what is more relevant is that he is something else entirely. A Savior.

Okay, so I promised two reasons. The second is hinted several times but never said. Jesus is Emmanuel, "God with us." This means that his entire life was to show that God came to be a part of humanity. Unlike most people, I do not believe it was necessary for God to die on the cross. In order to do what he really came to do, which is "tear down the curtain" between God and man, he simply had to (1) be born and (2) die. Doing this would be enough to ensure that human beings would have the ability to experience Heaven, and to be reconnected with God. The problem is, humans need atonement, and such and action does no good to those trapped in sin. So Jesus needed to be a sacrifice, in order to draw attention to the fact that our sins are being forgiven. That someone has paid the price. It wasn't that Jesus had to die on the cross for our sins. He could have chosen any death. It's that this was the best option to remind us that he took the curse of the law for us.


Everyone is free to guess about the question of whether gods exist or not...and you have made your guess.

You further guess that the god you guess exists came to Earth "to die for our sins."

My guess is that the entirety of this story is nothing but a myth started by a backwater, superstitious society in what is now known as the middle-east. The various societies of that area (there were many) invented all sorts of gods. The particular story was extended by people who bought into it...and now has been adopted by people like you.

Attempting to explain the why's and wherefore's of the myth...is like attempting to explain the why's and wherefore's of Prince Charming in the fairytale.

Live a good life...and stop trying explain the unexplainable.

Live a good life.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 05:23 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
But it's not the one everyone understands.

Assuming everyone does understand — which I doubt.
Quote:
Likewise, Jesus is intended to be raised (on the cross ) to draw attention to how God took our sins on to himself.

That really doesn't make any sense. If "sins" are wrongful thoughts and actions which people commit, how exactly are they "taken on to" someone else? The consequences of these acts are ignored but the "sins" are magically absorbed by a god?
Quote:
So Jesus needed to be a sacrifice, in order to draw attention to the fact that our sins are being forgiven. That someone has paid the price.

If anything, the lynching of Jesus merely illustrates social intolerance and mob violence in action — attempting to camouflage this with claptrap about everyone's sins being forgiven is ludicrous.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 06:20 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
This means that his entire life was to show that God came to be a part of humanity. Unlike most people, I do not believe it was necessary for God to die on the cross. In order to do what he really came to do, which is "tear down the curtain" between God and man, he simply had to (1) be born and (2) die
'Believers' all believe they have direct access to the truth through the spirit. The book tells them this is so, so of course they believe whatever 'the spirit' tells them.

But I think they forget that every spirit is not necessarily on God's side.
Fortunately, God granted us a reasoning mind that we could use to test the spirit. When we encounter a confusing contradiction, we have been given the tools to determine the validity of anything from any spirit. Not in any particular order, they are: The message of the spirit, the Scriptures and Reason.
If these three do not agree, then either you are wrong in understanding or, the message you received was not from God.
That's been the approach given to me anyway.



0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 06:47 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
Unlike most people, I do not believe it was necessary for God to die on the cross. In order to do what he really came to do, which is "tear down the curtain" between God and man, he simply had to (1) be born and (2) die.


Yes and No.

There was nothing miraculous about Jesus' blood that literally 'washed away our sins', but I think is was necessary for him to show LITERALLY that there was nothing, even this earthly life, that was more important than seeking God.
If you don’t see this, I think you haven’t gotten his message in full yet.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 10:42 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Like I said, everyone has different interpretations whether they are a believer or not.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 10:45 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

I understood it just fine.

No you didn't. Tortured here is used, not in the sense of physical or mental pain or anguish, but in the sense of overworked, misinterpreted, and distorted, things absent in reason and objectivity.

Leadfoot wrote:

You are welcome to point out anything you think is 'unreasoned rationalization' in my reasoning.
If you are intellectually honest, it is your duty to do so.

Dutiful, intellectual honesty coming up.

On the one hand, there is the “eternal” fire described in Matthew, but then you refer to temporal effects, e.g., dust and gasses that result from the combustion of fuel, that result from fire’s temporal sense, a process not mentioned in the Matthew passage. This is a contradiction, a product of a lack of reasoning. The rationalization comes from the subjective desire to reconcile the Hebrew texts about Sheol with the Greek texts about Hades.
revelette3
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 10:54 am
@hightor,
The following is where I get that Jesus takes the place of the sacrificial lambs and such of the Old Testament.

Quote:
Hebrews 10
10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


For me it is pretty cut and dried and self explanatory. Whether one accepts it or is a different story.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2021 12:36 pm
@revelette3,
revelette, I don't doubt your commitment to your faith and I would never challenge you on your right to believe or the place of worship in your life. I've known many fine Christians and am happy to share the planet with them. I see a difference between those whose faith is a private matter and some of the prideful people who post here, intent on inflicting the wrath of Jehovah on the political opposition and using the gospel to attack the scientific method.

I just don't see why sins are forgiven but the consequences of wrongful acts are unaffected and allowed to fester. And no one has explained the mechanism of blood sacrifice, i.e how it works, what mechanism is involved. How are people's wrongful thoughts and acts transferred to someone else and neutralized with the death of another being? Personally, I find it very unconvincing.
 

Related Topics

700 Inconsistencies in the Bible - Discussion by onevoice
Why do we deliberately fool ourselves? - Discussion by coincidence
Spirituality - Question by Miller
Oneness vs. Trinity - Discussion by Arella Mae
give you chills - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence for Evolution! - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence of God! - Discussion by Bartikus
One World Order?! - Discussion by Bartikus
God loves us all....!? - Discussion by Bartikus
The Preambles to Our States - Discussion by Charli
 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 06/12/2021 at 04:57:24