63
   

If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
auroreII
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Apr, 2019 04:42 am
@cicerone imposter,
Ciccerone
I decided to read my bible because it had been a "best seller" for hundreds of years. I wanted to know what was in it that made it so popular. Like you, it seemed to me there were inconsistencies and contradictions. At times I wanted to throw my bible against the wall in frustration. I kept studying the bible and over time I started to read with some understanding (I still have much to understand). It's a pretty amazing book when that happens. Below I wrote my interpretation of the quote you cited. (Doesn't mean I'm right- it's just some thoughts of mine.)

Luke 19:27
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”
Your above quote is from a story Jesus told about "end" times when he would come back and judge the world.

A gunman walks into a school and shoots several people and we wonder where is the justice in that act? There is justice in the world. It will come at the end times. Most christians are happy to know that ours is a just God and there is justice in the world. He is a just God, but he is also a merciful God willing to forgive.

Last sunday my minister spoke on the story of the prodigal son. The rich man in the story had 2 sons. Both sons had free will. One son chose to stay with the father. The prodigal son left taking what his father had to give him and squandering it. After he had squandered everything so that he had nothing left the prodigal son decided that even his father's servants were living better than he was so he chose to humble himself and come before his father and ask if he might be a servant. When the father saw him returning he ran to his son and hugged him. He threw a big celebration at the return of his son. The other son was miffed. He chose not to celebrate the return of his brother. It didn't seem fair that he, who had stayed and toiled for his father, should go to the party his father threw in celebration of the prodigal son's return. He did not want to forgive his brother. He felt that he was more special because of his loyalty. Did he eventually relent and celebrate his brother's return? The story ends there.

This is a story about the father's great joy at the return of his son to the family. We are all members of the family of God. God loves his children equally and wants his family with him. To that end his son, Jesus, was willing to make the sacrifice for our sins. A question occasionally asked in this forum is: If God is so perfect then why aren't people perfect since he made them? Let's say you had a child and you had the power to snap your fingers and make it so that child automatically loved you and did exactly as you wanted. Would you do it? Would the love the child showed you really be love? Free will is a precious gift God has given us. Do we squander it? Do we grow resentful? Do we join the celebration? Do we make sacrifices for the greater good? Do we allow resentment to grow into bitterness and hate?

Imagine you were the parent of one of those innocent schoolchildren the gunman chose to kill by his free will. You know that you cannot bring your child back, but as a christian you have the knowledge and faith of resurrection in Jesus Christ. You know that your child is in paradise with the Lord and that you will see that child again. You take comfort in that although it hurts immeasurably. Now imagine that the gunman was also your child. We are all God's children. Does God love the gunman any less? No. Like the rich man with the prodigal son God is always willing to forgive if we choose to let him. Yet some people, like the rich man's other son, are unwilling to forgive. They deem themselves more special. Some even want to be their own god and live by their own rules causing great suffering to God's children. One of God's greatest gifts to us is our free will to choose. Yes, it does seem unfair that people should suffer at the hands of those who choose to hurt them and yes those who commit such acts may feel that God could never forgive them because it is only fair that he should not, but he will if they choose to turn to him with true repentance. God wants all his children to be saved at the end times. It's not about revenge. It's about love. Most people cannot fathom the depths of God's love. Justice used to be an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but that only leaves a lot of people eyeless and toothless. Jesus shows us a different way. Well, that's my opinion anyway.

I believe in God. I can't really point to one tangible reason why, I just do. The bible shows us who God is through Emmanual, his son Jesus. I heard a gospel song recently where the singer claimed to be satisfied with Jesus. Jesus said when you look at me you're looking at the father. If you want to know who God is look at Jesus. I want Jesus' goodness to rule my life. I don't think I could find any better.
NealNealNeal
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2020 08:48 pm
@Caesar,
Hell was created for Satan and the other angels who rebelled against God. Those people who don't want to worship God get to know what it is like to not feel the presence of God. This is the ultimate separation of God and human.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2020 09:27 pm
@auroreII,
Quote:
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”
Your above quote is from a story Jesus told about "end" times when he would come back and judge the world.
Why would any god want to "reign over them?" There are many humans past, present, and future, who have lived good and decent lives, but never heard or believed in "your" god. They may have believed in other gods that were created in their specific country and race. Why should they be "slaughtered?" They followed the religion of their time and place which is only "natural." Besides, your god arrived only 2,000 years ago, and homo sapiens evolved from the primate family of animals 300,000 years ago. Who is the oldest religious god in the world? - Quora
www.quora.com/Who-is-the-oldest-religious-god-in...
Aryans Mithra goddess oldest sun god as worship all over the world mithras 1140 oldest temples found in Europe, China, america, uzbkistan (Iran ), the mark of mithras use by Kings and gods of 9000 bce Assyrians Egyptian's, Greek , zoroastrianism , Buddhism, and Hinduism..
What is the oldest god known to humanity? - Quora This is based on science. QUOTE: "What is the evolution of Homo sapiens?
The evolution of Homo Sapiens. The species that you and all other living human beings on this planet belong to is Homo sapiens. During a time of dramatic climate change 300,000 years ago, Homo sapiens evolved in Africa." Age of earth: How Old Is Earth? - How Scientists Determine Its Age | Space
www.space.com/24854-how-old-is-earth.html
The rocks and zircons set a lower limit on the age of Earth of 4.3 billion years, because the planet itself must be older than anything that lies on its surface.
History of Homo Sapiens (Early Modern Humans) - Lively History
www.livelyhistory.com/history-of-homo-sapiens-early-modern-humans/ Also, based on the bible, this planet is 7,000 years old *based on the date of creation. However, science through the study of this planet and environment estimates this planet to be over 4 billion years old. How do you reconcile these scientific findings that contradicts the "stories in the bible?"
0 Replies
 
G0disg00d
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jun, 2020 07:39 pm
Just as much as God is real, the devil is real. The story behind the devil is that he is fallen angel, who attempted to rebel against God, with the belief that he could/is be as powerful as God. It reads in 1 Peter 5:8 "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." And sometimes when he does prowl, he succeeds. Not just on a level of getting people to commit sin, but the devil became fallen after essentially wanting to be a God, which to some people he is as we know Devil worshippers exist - those people are going to hell as they please. Also Jesus died to allow the opportunity of forgiveness, but without apologising for what we want to be forgiven for, how are be expected to be forgiven.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2020 02:47 pm
@Bi-Polar Bear,
That made me giggle.

Actually, when you become educated (like me!) you realize that Hell is a borrow word from Hel (Norse) and that the word Hell is not in the Bible except in crappy English translations. The term used is usually Sheol. Or maybe Gehenna.

The former is an afterlife that bears little resemblance to either Heaven or Hell. The latter does have flames, but is not an afterlife (it's a garbage dump).
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2020 01:27 pm
Uhhhhh, apparently I can't edit/delete my last post (also this was downvoted for no good reason despite being informative. Here's an important note, you don't just downvote stuff because you don't like it. If it's a post that has something valuable to say, people ought to read it) so I'll just repost and add on to it.

Hell is not in the Bible, instead they say Sheol or Gehenna in proper translations. Gehenna has flames but it's not actually an afterlife.

Sheol is the Jewish afterlife. Remember that scene with Lazarus and the rich man? Well, keep in mind that unlike the modern Christian idea of Heaven and Hell as two separate places, what Jesus actually says is that they are in the same room, that the rich guy can see Lazarus and father Abraham, and that father Abraham can talk to him. This is Sheol, a unified afterlife.

Why do I say Gehenna is not an afterlife? Well Gehenna was a garbage dump, for burning bodies. Let's be more specific. There was a deity named Molech that those who turned away from worship of God would sacrifice children to. They would put them on an altar to be burned up. This also collected the bodies of criminals and animals, so it was a mass of rotting burning corpses. In other words, Jesus was trying to impress upon people the fact that like this pile of garbage, those people who didn't love their neighbor were garbage.

https://www.compellingtruth.org/Gehenna.html

Let this sink in. Jesus died for our sins. Period. Despite the fact that many people probably deserved a Hell like described as Gehenna, it's not biblical and never will be.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/messyinspirations/2019/11/hell-absent-bible/
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2020 01:51 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Let this sink in. Jesus died for our sins. Period. Despite the fact that many people probably deserved a Hell like described as Gehenna, it's not biblical and never will be.




If I may, I call horseshit on this line.

Also PERIOD.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 20 Nov, 2020 07:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
Again with the downvotes. You can call bullshit all you want but it doesn't make it so. I have a Complete Jewish Bible (translates to English using the original Jewish text, meaning some words are very Jewish), and guess what, Hell is nor there. At all. It mentions Sheol, it mentions wrath, it mentions punishment. It may even mention a lake of fire for the end times (but that's destruction not eternal punishment). No, no Hell.

This came from King James Translation which was well into the Middle Ages, and garbled by pagan concepts. A more accurate translation would be "the grave" except where torment is implied. And in most cases, death is simply death.

http://mercifultruth.com/the-real-hell.html
Go ahead, read this. Romans 8:35-39.

"Nothing can separate us from the love of God."

That doesn't mean nothing, besides Hell. It means nothing. How about you put me at 0, at least. -1 for actual information is rude. Or I'm gonna downvotw you too. In other words, you're suppressing an answer you don't like.

1. If Hell actually exists, it would be a place of eternal separation from God. But we cannot be separated from God, ergo Hell is a figment.
2. Jesus when speaking about Hell, was speaking to Pharisees. A group of moralists who spent all of their time trying to measure up. But when he spoke to sinners, he always mentioned grace. In other words, Hell was what you would get if it were a matter of being good enough for God (you cannot be). But we are not supposed to be. Galatians 3:10-24. The law is not there to be measured up to, but so we'll fail and realize we need Jesus instead.
3. In most versions of the Apostles Creed (before it was excised), they mention "he descended into hell". I was super-confused at one point so I decided to look this up. It leads to a belief known as the Harrowing of Hell. Remember the story of Jesus's death, how all these dead rise and begin speaking to people? Well uh, basically he spent some of his time down there telling people how to escape Hell. And there is a big gaping hole. Even if Hell exists, it's like the least secure prison ever, a wide open door that you just have to walk our of. Some don't of course, they are too busy living in their emotional baggage. But anyway.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Nov, 2020 08:47 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Again with the downvotes. You can call bullshit all you want but it doesn't make it so. I have a Complete Jewish Bible (translates to English using the original Jewish text, meaning some words are very Jewish), and guess what, Hell is nor there. At all. It mentions Sheol, it mentions wrath, it mentions punishment. It may even mention a lake of fire for the end times (but that's destruction not eternal punishment). No, no Hell.

This came from King James Translation which was well into the Middle Ages, and garbled by pagan concepts. A more accurate translation would be "the grave" except where torment is implied. And in most cases, death is simply death.

http://mercifultruth.com/the-real-hell.html
Go ahead, read this. Romans 8:35-39.

"Nothing can separate us from the love of God."

That doesn't mean nothing, besides Hell. It means nothing. How about you put me at 0, at least. -1 for actual information is rude. Or I'm gonna downvotw you too. In other words, you're suppressing an answer you don't like.

1. If Hell actually exists, it would be a place of eternal separation from God. But we cannot be separated from God, ergo Hell is a figment.
2. Jesus when speaking about Hell, was speaking to Pharisees. A group of moralists who spent all of their time trying to measure up. But when he spoke to sinners, he always mentioned grace. In other words, Hell was what you would get if it were a matter of being good enough for God (you cannot be). But we are not supposed to be. Galatians 3:10-24. The law is not there to be measured up to, but so we'll fail and realize we need Jesus instead.
3. In most versions of the Apostles Creed (before it was excised), they mention "he descended into hell". I was super-confused at one point so I decided to look this up. It leads to a belief known as the Harrowing of Hell. Remember the story of Jesus's death, how all these dead rise and begin speaking to people? Well uh, basically he spent some of his time down there telling people how to escape Hell. And there is a big gaping hole. Even if Hell exists, it's like the least secure prison ever, a wide open door that you just have to walk our of. Some don't of course, they are too busy living in their emotional baggage. But anyway.


One...I have never down-voted any of your posts. Fact is, I have used the "down vote" less than a half-dozen times during the almost 20 years I have been a member here in A2K. . Blame someone else for your down-votes...or better yet, blame yourself for your lame posts.

Two...here is a Bibliography of the books I use for discussions here in the forum when religion is a topic. You will see that I have a four book Jewish Bible in there (with English traslation):

St. Joseph Edition of The New American Bible; Catholic book Publishing, NY; 1968 (Catholic)

The New American Bible; Thomas Nelson Inc, Nashville; 1971 (Catholic)

The Holy Bible King James Version; Thomas Nelson, Nashville: 1984 (Protestant)

The Holy Bible New International Version; Zondervan Bible Pub. Grand Rapids; 1978 (Non-demoninational)

The Scofield Reference Holy Bible (King James Version); Oxford Univ. Press; NY; 1909 (Protestant)

The Holy Scriptures Masoretic Text; Jewish Publ Society; Philadelphia: 1955 (Jewish)

The Holy Bible, St.Joseph Textbook Edition, Confraternity Version; Catholic book Publ: NY; 1963; (Catholic)

The Holy Bible Revised Berkeley Version; The Gideons Intrl; 1984; (Non-denominational Protestant)

The New American Catholic Edition of The Holy Bible; Benziger Bros, Boston; 1950 (Catholic)

The Old Testament; Guild Press NY; 1965 (Catholic)

The Living Bible; Holman Illustrated Edition: A.J. Holman Co; Philadelphia; 1973 (Protestant)

The Holy Bible; King James Version; The World Publ Co: Cleveland; (no date); (Protestant)

The Old Testament; Hebrew Publishing Co: NY; 1916 (Four books English & Hebrew)(Jewish)

**** Also I use

The Common Catechism of the Christian Faith: Seabury Press;NY 1975 (Protestant)

Catechism of the Catholic Church: Libreria Editrice Vaticana; Urbi et Orbi Comm; 1994 (Catholic)

The New St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism: Catholic Book Publish; NY; 1962 (Catholic)

*****Plus, I have (estimated) 40 - 50 other books dealing with the Bible, religion, and philosophy that I use when posting.


Let's see your bibliography, Genius.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Nov, 2020 06:01 am
And they all say in one way or another, that it is the spirit which shall lead you unto all truth, not your favorite book.
0 Replies
 
DiscipleDave
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Nov, 2020 10:40 pm
@Caesar,
God desires everyone to Return to Heaven. However, not everyone will choose to do so.
satan and over 3.5 demons were kicked out of Heaven (Universe) and will not be allowed back in it. They are here right now confined to Earth, to TEST humans on this planet.
Hell is not created right now, because there is no need for it. When antichrist and beast are destroyed, then there will be a need for a prison to confine them. That is when Hell will be created.

And a over a thousand years later, after the great battle between God and satan is over. satan and over 3.5 Billion demons will join them in Hell. And all those who freely choose to follow the ways of satan will be put there as well.
0 Replies
 
Thundermist04167
 
  -4  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2020 03:51 pm
@Caesar,
Because, if any person refuses to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior, then that person dies in his sins, and goes to Hell. "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41, KJV).
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2020 04:01 pm
@Thundermist04167,
I really should report you for making threats to people.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

700 Inconsistencies in the Bible - Discussion by onevoice
Why do we deliberately fool ourselves? - Discussion by coincidence
Spirituality - Question by Miller
Oneness vs. Trinity - Discussion by Arella Mae
give you chills - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence for Evolution! - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence of God! - Discussion by Bartikus
One World Order?! - Discussion by Bartikus
God loves us all....!? - Discussion by Bartikus
The Preambles to Our States - Discussion by Charli
 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 01/22/2021 at 08:55:55