If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

@Leadfoot,

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I assume at this point you are just playing endless word games.

I'm showing you what your beliefs about the god actually look like up close and personal. How is that a word game?

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You keep insisting that the value to God is the animal

And why wouldn't I? It was the god that insisted that the physical animal has value as a bargaining chip. You've forgotten that the sacrifice of animals was for the purpose of covering up sin, and not to show appreciation, didn't you?

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Its really very simple. Abraham, etc, showed their loved one (God) their appreciation by sacrificing some of their treasure to him

No. You have it backwards. The god required and asked for the sacrifice. It was the god's idea.

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You show your appreciation for your loved one in exactly the same way.

Hardly. I don't need to kill anything and burn it to prove my appreciation; nor would my wife request such a thing Again, I'm stunned; not because I cannot conceive of loving a god, as you suggest, but because in your mind, you believe that you need to prove your love for your god by way of payment in some form. You know that your god knows your thoughts and feelings. So tell me, why do you imagine that it would expect anyone to harm another being to prove their love? You need to think about what you're saying about your god.

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I don't know much about voodoo but I doubt it has much in common.

Are you kidding?! Killing animals and burning them to cover transgressions? You are not allowing yourself to think any of this through. This is what happens when you deify a book.

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@Glennn,

Quote:

Leadfoot Quote:
"You keep insisting that the value to God is the animal"

And why wouldn't I? It was the god that insisted that the physical animal has value as a bargaining chip. You've forgotten that the sacrifice of animals was for the purpose of covering up sin, and not to show appreciation, didn't you?

Still, the value to God is not the animal. It is the benefit of the covering to the man that he cared about. And because the sin was only covered, not eliminated, he cared about the man enough to sacrifice his own Son for a time in order to finish the job. That should make it painfully obvious that it was the man and not the animal God cared about.

And do not forget what sin at its core is - The denial of reality. As best I can tell, before that final sacrifice, man did not have the necessary 'facilities' to fully understand the reality of what God had done for him. Hence the need for the temporary covering. Now that we have access to that understanding, the sacrificial aspect is no longer required, only the acknowledgment, both mentally and in 'life', of the reality that we owe our very existence to God.

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@Leadfoot,

"Sacrifice his own son?" LOL He 'slept' for a day or two. That's not a 'sacrifice' by any meaning of that word.

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@cicerone imposter,

Read carefully. I said "for a time".

He was here 33 years last I heard. Would you give up your loved one for that long? Especially with the welcoming committee he got here?

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@Leadfoot,

"For a time" doesn't change the meaning of sacrifice.

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@Leadfoot,

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Still, the value to God is not the animal.

Yes it was. The god required sacrificial blood, along with the burnt corpse. Where else would the blood come from?

I understand how it is that you choose to remain in a place where you are still allowing a book to do your thinking for you. Consider the fact that, though I have pointed out to you that the blood sacrifice idea is no different from voodoo, you refuse to see the obvious similarity. By accepting this idea of a loving being whose currency of choice is blood, suffering, and death, you willingly embrace a contradiction of principals.

As a way out of your predicament, you hold up the god's willingness to engage in horrific actions as proof of its love for humans. For now, you're incapable of considering what this really means about the god, and what it means about you. None of this would be if you had not surrendered to the false idea that you were born guilty.

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@cicerone imposter,

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For a time" doesn't change the meaning of sacrifice.

Please don't tell me you're hung up on 'blood 'n guts' too.

Do you really think that the only application of the word 'sacrifice' is to put something to death? I sacrificed a few precious minutes of my time to respond to your post. Was it worth it?

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@Leadfoot,

In the context of Jesus' death, yes.
I have a question for you: How old is planet earth?

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@Glennn,

I wrote:

Where did you see the word 'quenched'?

Glennn wrote:

And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

Quenched sound about right?

No. That's your word. It tells your confirmation bias.
'Quenched' implies necessity. But the Creator of the universe has no necessity and needs nothing from us. Instead, we are the ones having needs necessitated by the events of Genesis chapter 3.

But this is where we fail to communicate. Either the events of Genesis are factual - Or they are myth.

If factual, you must accept the writer's assessment of God's supreme ability to regulate events according to his purpose. Abraham's decision, therefore, was completely in line with the standards he already knew about God. Standards in which you have neither understanding nor faith.

If the events of Genesis are myth or simple allegory, then any may be dismissed as having meaning apart from the words.

So why do you bother whipping what to you is a dead horse?

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@neologist,

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". . . Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." (Revelation 14:7)

Nothing like a little threat.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

. . . How old is planet earth?

The age of the earth is not specifies as first, an unspecified period of time, followed by 6 time periods of unspecified length. So, it could be a kazillion years, especially since all the 'days' are lumped into one at Genesis 2:4. Of course, the seventh day has yet to be recorded as having ended. That may help.

Oh, and if you add up all the years since Adam's creation, he would be about 6040 years old if he were still around.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

. . . Nothing like a little threat.

So, would you prefer to worship God's adversary - the one who brought us war and crime and sickness and death?

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@neologist,

Where does the common knowledge of 7000 years come from?

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@Glennn,

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Leadfoot Quote:
"Still, the value to God is not the animal."

Yes it was. The god required sacrificial blood, along with the burnt corpse. Where else would the blood come from?

Think we've beat that dead horse bloody so we'll just have to disagree.

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I understand how it is that you choose to remain in a place where you are still allowing a book to do your thinking for you.

As I said, the book came along well after I had arrived at my beliefs. Even the book says that 'the spirit' (not the book) 'will lead you into all truth'.

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None of this would be if you had not surrendered to the false idea that you were born guilty.

I don't have any such idea. That is something organized religions came up with. I was only born with a clean slate (ignorant) but with free will and an awareness of right and wrong. Later on I had plenty of opportunity to screw up and make bad choices. At the core of all of them was a denial of reality. I'm hoping to avoid that now that I have a handle on things.

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@neologist,

No, there's always other choices such as atheism. How many man-made gods are there? I've lost count after looking at India's religions.

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@cicerone imposter,

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[sacrifice] In the context of Jesus' death, yes.

But I thought we were in agreement that he didn't die? Are you changing your vote?

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I have a question for you: How old is planet earth?

In our time scheme, about 4.5 B. Years old. But of course the stellar dust that it formed from must me much older than that. Why do you ask?

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Where does the common knowledge of 7000 years come from?

I thought the common lie was 6000 years, the time more or less since Adam's birth.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

No, there's always other choices such as atheism. How many man-made gods are there? I've lost count after looking at India's religions.

Understood.
Perhaps it may be appropriate to look at God from his point of view.

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@Leadfoot,

Because scholars of the bible say the earth is 6 to 7000 years old. I trust the scholars more than one book called the bible.

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@cicerone imposter,

'Scholars' who come up with that number is being very generous. I'd hardly rate them as readers let alone scholars.

1 Reply

If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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