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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
Xander Q
 
  0  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 08:46 am
Jehovah (God) and Jesus (Michael the Archangel before) Aren't the same person.

The Catholic Church wanted to gain power by using the Pagan trinity of old, from Babylon, (Semiramis and Nimrod the husband of Semiramis who died and fertilized her, giving birth to himself according to the myth). They omitted God's name and replaced it with LORD, so as to reinforce this (even though they had no right to do so).

There you have it. God is, quite simply, the mathematical foundation of the universe and the energy which allows it to exist. It is impossible to think that the universe would compress itself into a human being - it would become a singularity and implode upon itself! Rather, his first complex creation came down on it's own accord and died for us. That is what happened according to the Bible. The Bible is not a book of mystery and mystical interpretation, even in Revelations.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 10:02 am
@Tuna,
Makes the trinirarians look foolish. Good work.

Sorry, jjj.
0 Replies
 
JoshuaVerum
 
  0  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2015 04:53 pm
Jesus—Why He Died

“The Son of man came . . . to give his soul [or, life] a ransom in exchange for many.”—MARK 10:45.

JESUS knew what to expect. He understood that he would not live his life in peace. On the contrary, he was aware that his life would be tragically cut short while he was still in his 30’s, and he was fully prepared to face his death.

The Bible attaches great importance to the death of Jesus. One reference work says that the death of Jesus is mentioned directly some 175 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, or New Testament. Why, though, did Jesus have to suffer and then die? We need to know, for the death of Jesus can have a profound effect on our life.

What Jesus expected
During the last year of his life, Jesus several times warned his disciples about the suffering and death that awaited him. On the way to Jerusalem to observe his final Passover, he told his 12 apostles: “The Son of man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and will deliver him to men of the nations, and they will make fun of him and will spit upon him and scourge him and kill him.” * (Mark 10:33, 34) Why was he so certain about what would happen to him?

Jesus was familiar with the many prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that foretold how his life would end. (Luke 18:31-33) Consider some of the prophecies along with the Scriptural references that explain how they were fulfilled.

The Messiah would be . . .
Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.—ZECHARIAH 11:12; MATTHEW 26:14-16.

Struck and spit on.—ISAIAH 50:6; MATTHEW 26:67; 27:26, 30.

Impaled.—PSALM 22:16, footnote; MARK 15:24, 25.

Reviled while on the stake.—PSALM 22:7, 8; MATTHEW 27:39-43.

Executed without having any of his bones broken.—PSALM 34:20; JOHN 19:33, 36.

Jesus fulfilled these and many other prophecies. There is no way that he could have done this on his own. The fulfillment of all these prophecies in Jesus proves that he was, indeed, sent by God. *

Why, though, was it necessary for Jesus to suffer and die?

Jesus died in order to settle vital issues
Jesus was aware of the issues of universal importance that were raised back in the garden of Eden. Influenced by a rebellious spirit creature, Adam and Eve chose to disobey God. The couple’s rebellion called into question the rightness of God’s sovereignty, or way of ruling. Their sin also raised the question of whether any humans would prove faithful to God under test.—Genesis 3:1-6; Job 2:1-5.

Jesus gave the most conclusive answer possible to both issues—Jehovah’s sovereignty and human integrity. By his perfect obedience “as far as death . . . on a torture stake,” Jesus upheld God’s sovereignty. (Philippians 2:8) Jesus also proved that a perfect man could maintain perfect integrity to Jehovah despite the severest of trials.

Jesus died in order to redeem humankind
The prophet Isaiah foretold that the promised Messiah’s suffering and death would provide atonement for the sins of humans. (Isaiah 53:5, 10) Jesus clearly understood this, and he willingly gave “his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matthew 20:28) His sacrificial death opened the way for imperfect humans to have a good relationship with Jehovah and to be rescued from sin and death. Jesus’ death opens up to us the opportunity to regain what Adam and Eve lost—the prospect of living forever in perfect conditions on earth. *—Revelation 21:3, 4.

What you can do
In this series of articles, we have examined what the Bible says about Jesus—where he came from, how he lived, and why he died. Knowing those truths about Jesus can do more than clear up misconceptions about him. Acting in harmony with them can bring blessings—a better life now and everlasting life in the future. The Bible tells us what we need to do if we are to reap such benefits.

Learn more about Jesus Christ and his role in Jehovah’s purpose.—JOHN 17:3.
Exercise faith in Jesus, showing by your way of life that you accept him as your Savior.—JOHN 3:36; ACTS 5:31.

Jehovah’s Witnesses would be pleased to assist you in learning more about Jesus Christ, the “only-begotten Son” of God, through whom we may receive the gift of “everlasting life.”—John 3:16.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2015 06:17 pm
@Leadfoot,
Not crazy: Look how many bought it.
0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2015 07:02 pm
OK, what I'm about to say may sound like an attack, but it really isn't. It's an earnest question.

The OP reminds me of a statement attributed to Ghandi. He said he would be a Christian if he ever met one. In other words: it's amazingly common for Christians to be, well.. un-Christian. For instance, they don't have a tendency, as a rule, to turn the other cheek unless it's to keep their faces from being stained by blood.

That would be ok if it was Christians lacking in faith who do that sort of thing, but it isn't. Those who broadcast their faith with a freakin' megaphone are simultaneously vindictive and cruel.

What's up with that?
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2015 09:01 pm
@JoshuaVerum,
Quote:
JESUS knew what to expect. He understood that he would not live his life in peace. On the contrary, he was aware that his life would be tragically cut short while he was still in his 30’s, and he was fully prepared to face his death.
Yes, he was willing to die for the message he wanted to deliver. But what makes him any different than any of the countless wretched souls willing to give their life up for what they believe?

It's the story. If you don't get that, you've missed the whole point of his death.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2015 09:21 pm
@Leadfoot,
But, but, but......his death wasn't really death.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2015 09:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
He got better.

0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 07:47 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

But, but, but......his death wasn't really death
And neither will your's. That will come later if you so choose.

I know you don't believe the story, but can't you assume it is for the sake of argument? If you are incapable of that, why even bother posting to theological threads?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 08:00 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

And neither will your's. That will come later if you so choose.


More claim, still no evidence. SNAFU.

Quote:
I know you don't believe the story, but can't you assume it is for the sake of argument? If you are incapable of that, why even bother posting to theological threads?


What's the point of arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin instead of the real question as to whether or not there are even angels? You might as well be writing fanfiction about Harry Potter or Iron Man, for all that's worth.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 08:07 am
@FBM,
Quote:
What's the point of arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin instead of the real question as to whether or not there are even angels? You might as well be writing fanfiction about Harry Potter or Iron Man, for all that's worth.
And still you feel the need to do it...
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 08:21 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:


I know you don't believe the story, but can't you assume it is for the sake of argument? If you are incapable of that, why even bother posting to theological threads?

If by "the story" you mean the sacrifice of Jesus, the problem with entertaining it is that at face value, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

We could dismantle the story into symbols and examine what psychological depths there might be. The framework of the story is ancient sacrificial magic. People would bring young rams to the temple and give them up to secure divine blessings. It's making a deal with God.

We could analyze that out to four parts superstition to one part "you have to give something to get something."

You have to work hard to deserve food and shelter
You have to transform yourself into something appealing if you want people to like you.
You have be willing to sacrifice your children to the military if you want your country to be secure.
And so on.

The draw of sacrificial magic isn't something the average person has to assume for the sake of argument... it's something embedded in the world.



FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 08:43 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
What's the point of arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin instead of the real question as to whether or not there are even angels? You might as well be writing fanfiction about Harry Potter or Iron Man, for all that's worth.
And still you feel the need to do it...


Au contraire. You keep stumping for your favorite invisible guy-in-the-sky, and I keep asking, "Where's your evidence?" Far cry from making up fanfiction about angels dancing on the heads of pins, and gods decreeing this or that or the other by fiat. The former takes nothing for granted, the latter is all faith-based declaration by wishful speculation. At least until, y'know, you or someone else comes up with some genuine, y'know, evidence to the contrary.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 09:03 am
@Tuna,
Quote:

If by "the story" you mean the sacrifice of Jesus, the problem with entertaining it is that at face value, it doesn't make a lot of sense
By 'the story' I was including the entire book, not just the 'death' of Jesus. I've always maintained that if the bible has any validity, there must be a way to view it where the whole thing (story) makes sense.

In context of the Old Testament, the sacrifice of an animal was not the currency involved in 'the deal with God'. A deal implies that something of value to both parties was exchanged and obviously an animal was of no value to a God. What man was offering was the recognition that what God offered man was of far more value and importance to the man than the animal. It was that recognition that was of value to God.

That is not to say that there are not examples where people failed to understand the currency involved in the deal or that some did not distort the principle for their own benefit.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 09:06 am
@FBM,
I'm beginning to believe you are incapable of extrapolation.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 09:08 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

I'm beginning to believe you are incapable of extrapolation.


I'm beginning to believe you are incapable of presenting genuine evidence for your invisible guy-in-the-sky hypothesis.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 09:11 am
@FBM,
Quote:

I'm beginning to believe you are incapable of presenting genuine evidence for your invisible guy-in-the-sky hypothesis
And I'm fully convinced that you could not recognize it if I did.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 09:39 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:

I'm beginning to believe you are incapable of presenting genuine evidence for your invisible guy-in-the-sky hypothesis
And I'm fully convinced that you could not recognize it if I did.


You'll never know until you try. Evidence. Credible, open, falsifiable and without logical fallacies. It's what science is built on. Let's see what you got.
0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 09:46 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

By 'the story' I was including the entire book, not just the 'death' of Jesus. I've always maintained that if the bible has any validity, there must be a way to view it where the whole thing (story) makes sense.

There are a multitude of ways to see the Bible as a cohesive story. A lot of the ones we have inherited include some element of mystery... the claim being that there are things we'll never understand, such as the trinity.

Trinitarians have the challenge of making sense of the synoptic gospels, which do not depict Jesus as divine. I have confidence that a trinitarian theologian can come up with a way to explain why it's reported that the dying Jesus called out "God, God, why have you forsaken me?"

The thing is: I'm not particularly interested in that sort of explanation because it's not done with a desire to understand ancient writings. It's done to force cohesion. Know what I mean?

Likewise, your take on sacrificial magic seems to me to be touched with a bias. Maybe none of us escape that sort of thing. My bias about it comes from putting myself in the shoes of an ancient Semitic person who's picking out a lamb to give up to God. These were pastoral people. Their lives depended on their flocks or herds. The animal itself was seen as sacred.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 10:30 am
@Tuna,
Quote:
There are a multitude of ways to see the Bible as a cohesive story. A lot of the ones we have inherited include some element of mystery... the claim being that there are things we'll never understand, such as the trinity.
Yes, virtually all of them I've run into rely on mystery. Maybe just my bias but that is an unacceptable solution to me. If such basics as the trinity are to remain a mystery, I'd have no interest in such an inaccessible God. I don't see any thing supporting the Trinity concept in the bible though.

Quote:
Trinitarians have the challenge of making sense of the synoptic gospels, which do not depict Jesus as divine. I have confidence that a trinitarian theologian can come up with a way to explain why it's reported that the dying Jesus called out "God, God, why have you forsaken me?"
If I accept as hypothesis that God had a hand in generating and preserving the bible then I would feel no need to explain things not included in it. I'm sure Trinitarians could come up with some explaination for that quote (tortured as it would have to be) but it would have to pass my biased demand that it be coherent, logical and reasonable.

Quote:
The thing is: I'm not particularly interested in that sort of explanation because it's not done with a desire to understand ancient writings. It's done to force cohesion. Know what I mean?
I think so. Hence my insistence on logic and reason and rejection of overly tortuous explainations.

Quote:
Likewise, your take on sacrificial magic seems to me to be touched with a bias. Maybe none of us escape that sort of thing. My bias about it comes from putting myself in the shoes of an ancient Semitic person who's picking out a lamb to give up to God. These were pastoral people. Their lives depended on their flocks or herds. The animal itself was seen as sacred.
More than touched, but I excuse reason as an acceptable bias.
I have not read into the text that they regarded the animals as 'sacred' (the word almost doesn't appear in KJV) but certainly they had a reverence for it because of their lives' dependence on them. It's just that they valued the life to come promissed by God over the temporary one here, as evidenced by their willingness to sacrifice it.
 

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