61
   

If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 10:56 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I don't see any thing supporting the Trinity concept in the bible though.

Anti-trinitarians have the gospel of John to deal with. From beginning to end, that account is clearly communicating that Jesus was divine. Are you a non-denominational Christian?

Quote:
If I accept as hypothesis that God had a hand in generating and preserving the bible then I would feel no need to explain things not included in it. I'm sure Trinitarians could come up with some explaination for that quote (tortured as it would have to be) but it would have to pass my biased demand that it be coherent, logical and reasonable.

The synoptic gospels are Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Jesus' question about being forsaken by God is in Mark, the oldest of the four official gospels.

Quote:
It's just that they valued the life to come promissed by God over the temporary one here, as evidenced by their willingness to sacrifice it.

The practice of sacrifice appears to have preceded any belief among Hebrews in an afterlife or a "world to come."

I'm hip to seeing psychological significance in ancient religions. Christianity is an element of a large pool of religious views spanning at least 4000 years. If you want to know something like: "Why was bread and wine served at the Last Supper?", I wouldn't rely on reason alone. You need to know the background of that particular meal. So I tend to go with religion scholarship over my own intuitions.

But I am curious about post-modern Christianity, which locates the reality of religious symbols in the significance they have to contemporary individuals. Would you put yourself in that class?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 11:44 am
@Tuna,

Quote:
Anti-trinitarians have the gospel of John to deal with. From beginning to end, that account is clearly communicating that Jesus was divine. Are you a non-denominational Christian?
I've never understood the claim by Trinitarians that to deny the Trinity is to deny the divinity of Jesus. Being the only begotten Son of God, given equal power and seated at the right hand of God - I mean if that does not make one 'divine', what would?
I am not a formal scholar of ancient texts so maybe I don't know the formal definition of 'divine'. Is it synonomous with being God?

I don't belong to any denominational church if that's what you mean. I do believe the son of God came to earth to dwell among man for a time.

Quote:
The synoptic gospels are Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Jesus' question about being forsaken by God is in Mark, the oldest of the four official gospels.
Ooopps, my bad. I read that as the 'Gnostic' gospels, which I am aware of but not very knowledgable about.

Quote:
The practice of sacrifice appears to have preceded any belief among Hebrews in an afterlife or a "world to come."
That may be true and the practice continues today. But I see that as separate to what God called on believers to do in the Old Testament. The question prompts me to look at it closer though.

Quote:
I'm hip to seeing psychological significance in ancient religions. Christianity is an element of a large pool of religious views spanning at least 4000 years. If you want to know something like: "Why was bread and wine served at the Last Supper?", I wouldn't rely on reason alone. You need to know the background of that particular meal. So I tend to go with religion scholarship over my own intuitions.

But I am curious about post-modern Christianity, which locates the reality of religious symbols in the significance they have to contemporary individuals. Would you put yourself in that class?

Oh no, reason alone is not enough. And I have benefited often from the knowledge of scholars, But ultimately everyone must make their own call on these things. If the scholar's interpretation passes the test of reason I'm likely to accept it but I never hesitate to toss it out if it doesn't.

Yes, symbology, metaphor and even revelation have a place in my current understanding.
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 12:07 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

I've never understood the claim by Trinitarians that to deny the Trinity is to deny the divinity of Jesus. Being the only begotten Son of God, given equal power and seated at the right hand of God - I mean if that does not make one 'divine', what would?
I am not a formal scholar of ancient texts so maybe I don't know the formal definition of 'divine'. Is it synonomous with being God?

Angels are sometimes called "divine." The root of divine comes from poly-theistic Indo-Europeans. I'm not a religion scholar either. I just happen to know that. Smile

Quote:

Yes, symbology, metaphor and even revelation have a place in my current understanding.

Cool.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  3  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 01:08 pm
@Tuna,
Tuna wrote:
. . . Anti-trinitarians have the gospel of John to deal with. From beginning to end, that account is clearly communicating that Jesus was divine. Are you a non-denominational Christian?. . .
Jesus was divine, but not God.
Just a smidgen of John's gospel, ch 17: 3-5
Quote:
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Clearly two individuals.
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 01:14 pm
@neologist,
Just as Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu are thought of as manifestations of one thing, trinitarians see Jesus as a face of God. The opening lines of John fit nicely with this view. And throughout John, Jesus is aloof and apparently gifted with pre-cognition. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus is more human. He's passionate (no pun intended.)

Mark is my favorite gospel because the humanity of Jesus comes through in a palpable way.
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 01:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
But, but, but......his death wasn't really death.
If you believe that, you qualify as a trinitarian.
If you don't believe that, but are just babbling what you have heard from nominal christians, you are simply erecting strawmen.

Perhaps it would serve you well to discover what the Bible really teaches.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  3  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 01:35 pm
@Tuna,
All of the Gospels portray the same Jesus, albeit from different personal viewpoints. A careful reading of the opening verse in John's gospel reveals a distinct difference in the Greek words applied to Jesus and His Father.
Jesus 'a god' - Θεὸς
His Father, Jehovah, 'the God' - Θεόν
BTW, Jesus' name is based on His Father's name (Jehovah's Salvation)
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 01:44 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

All of the Gospels portray the same Jesus, albeit from different personal viewpoints. A careful reading of the opening verse in John's gospel reveals a distinct difference in the Greek words applied to Jesus and His Father.
Jesus 'a god' - Θεὸς
His Father, Jehovah, 'the God' - Θεόν
BTW, Jesus' name is based on His Father's name (Jehovah's Salvation)


One entity is identified as both: the Word.

A lot of people were named Jesus before and after the famous one.
neologist
 
  4  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 01:50 pm
@Tuna,
neologist wrote:
All of the Gospels portray the same Jesus, albeit from different personal viewpoints. A careful reading of the opening verse in John's gospel reveals a distinct difference in the Greek words applied to Jesus and His Father.
Jesus 'a god' - Θεὸς
His Father, Jehovah, 'the God' - Θεόν
BTW, Jesus' name is based on His Father's name (Jehovah's Salvation)
Tuna wrote:
One entity is identified as both: the Word.

A lot of people were named Jesus before and after the famous one.
But none are named Jehovah.
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 02:27 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

But none are named Jehovah.

I like you neologist. You seem like a nice person. I'm catching a whiff of evangelism, though.

Just to have it in the open: entering a conversation with a hidden agenda of pushing a particular religious belief is what's known as bad faith. To me, it's distasteful. I hope you're not doing that.
neologist
 
  5  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 02:45 pm
@Tuna,
The OP is about Jesus, a real person, and about hell, a false belief. Why would my religious perspective not be relevant?
neologist
 
  5  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 02:49 pm
@Tuna,
Also note my entry into this conversation here.
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 03:44 pm
@neologist,
I wasn't talking about relevance. I was saying that I don't like discovering after I've already been in a discussion that one of the parties was fishing.

It may just be my ignorance, which you could dispel now:

Are you on this forum because you're looking to "spread the word"?

neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 07:10 pm
@Tuna,
Tuna wrote:
. . . Are you on this forum because you're looking to "spread the word"?
I believe I am like many others here. I come to learn and I come to provide insight into what I know (or believe I know).
My profile says a lot. My previous posts say a lot.

What you see is what you get.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 07:25 pm
@neologist,
I can't see you! LOL
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 07:59 pm
@neologist,
I was looking for a "No, I'm not here to evangelize." That's not what you said.

You're on my ignore list, dude.
0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 08:27 pm
@neologist,
Except it occurs to me that ignoring you does nothing for the suckers who find themselves in the same position I was in.

So let's do this:

You will not evangelize on this site without people knowing that you will not deny that fishing/spamming is what you're here for.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 11:51 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
I can't see you! LOL
No coffee for you then.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2015 12:46 am
@Tuna,
Tuna wrote:
Except it occurs to me that ignoring you does nothing for the suckers who find themselves in the same position I was in.

So let's do this:

You will not evangelize on this site without people knowing that you will not deny that fishing/spamming is what you're here for.
Well, then. You have a most important responsibility - to parse through my posts and expose my spurious reasoning to the unsophisticated.

You join an esteemed group. Many such as you have taken up cudgels to expose condescending sciolism and disprove the pernicious pretense. I applaud you and promise to do the same.
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2015 08:12 am
@neologist,
I don't come to this forum with a hidden agenda, neologist.

I wish someone had given me a heads up that you're one of Jehovah's Witnesses and you're here to find converts. I really believe you shouldn't go around doing that without announcing your intentions.
 

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