If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Setanta wrote:

I've always wanted to know why Hey-Zeus looks like a white boy from Westphalia, as opposed to a Jew from Palestine. Is that just a little weird, or am I over-reacting?

Good point. Can you believe it? Here we are agreeing again. . .

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

"He wanted to experience the pain of humanity"

By He you mean God
How do you know this?
You dont
Its pure speculation
If you did know you would know the mind of God
You have no idea of the mind of God
Or you are God
Just idle speculation, like the others.

the only way of knowing God's mind, is through that book, that he inspired, u know? Most commonly known as the bible. From the New Testament we can the mind set of Christ, which is a from of God. And in the old testament it references multiple times in Isiah, that Christ will experience humanity. Since he is God, that means that he probably wanted to experience this. And its really not speculation. It comes directly from the Bible, which then of course you could go to say is speculation as well, but it is proven to be the most accurate account of history ever recorded. There are over 24,000 manuscripts alone.

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hislifemyransom wrote:

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
"He wanted to experience the pain of humanity"

By He you mean God
How do you know this?
You dont
Its pure speculation
If you did know you would know the mind of God
You have no idea of the mind of God
Or you are God
Just idle speculation, like the others.

the only way of knowing God's mind, is through that book, that he inspired, u know? Most commonly known as the bible. From the New Testament we can the mind set of Christ, which is a from of God. And in the old testament it references multiple times in Isiah, that Christ will experience humanity. Since he is God, that means that he probably wanted to experience this. And its really not speculation. It comes directly from the Bible, which then of course you could go to say is speculation as well, but it is proven to be the most accurate account of history ever recorded. There are over 24,000 manuscripts alone.

If you're going to expound on the bible, do us a favor and cite the references.

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The bible has got to be one of the LEAST reliable historical accounts ever to have come down the pike.

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I rely heavily on Will Durant's Story of Civilization and often refer to the works he cites. I use Josephus' Antiquities as well as a clever little book called The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop. I'm confident of my understanding of events dating back to the time of Nimrod. As for ante diluvian history, I find Josephus' work enlightening, but I defer to the bible. I say this at peril of further losing Setanta's respect, but I just can't help myself. I'm so sorry!

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/crybaby.gif

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Josephus was a fairly reliable historian, for the times, but there is a problem in that christians of later dates, and mostly shortly after Josephus had died and his work was becoming well-known, have altered the text to support their theological and historical contentions. It is very difficult to find copies of Josephus which have not be polluted by the christians.

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My point is I've reconciled it all to the bible and still consider myself sane. Just look at some of the things not clearly understood about the bible:
1] The soul is not immortal. You are a soul.When You're dead you're dead.
2] The punishment for sin is death. A burning hell does not exist.
3] The trinity and the cross are pagan teachings not supported by the bible.
4] Man was created to live on earth. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, they would still be here.
5] The small group of humans taken from earth to rule with Christ in heaven is just that: a small group. I don't profess to be a part of that group.
5] The true ruler of this world at this point in time is not God but Satan. He was given (what seems to us an interminable) time to prove his accusations about God's creations. The book of Job gives insight into Satan's charges.
6] God's judgement on the clergy is foretold both in Zechariah 13:4-6 as well as the 17th and 18th chapters of the book of Revelation
This is getting quite long and I'm not nearly done. I'll save the rest for later.

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Here's two bits, call somebody who cares . . .

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hislifemyransom wrote:

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
"He wanted to experience the pain of humanity"

By He you mean God
How do you know this?
You dont
Its pure speculation
If you did know you would know the mind of God
You have no idea of the mind of God
Or you are God
Just idle speculation, like the others.

the only way of knowing God's mind, is through that book, that he inspired, u know? Most commonly known as the bible. From the New Testament we can the mind set of Christ, which is a from of God. And in the old testament it references multiple times in Isiah, that Christ will experience humanity. Since he is God, that means that he probably wanted to experience this. And its really not speculation. It comes directly from the Bible, which then of course you could go to say is speculation as well, but it is proven to be the most accurate account of history ever recorded. There are over 24,000 manuscripts alone.

I find it hard to believe that a book which internally cannot agree with itself is deemed worthy to be called "the most accurate account of history ever recorded."

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Two bits??? That's way too much. You've got change coming, mister. 2 Cents

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/cheekkiss.gif

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You can call me, I care. Smile

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Neologist

So you want me to tell you about NDE.

NDE is the one thing that tells us there is a God, or something that is God-like. Most all religions have some form of NDE in them. Some who research NDE say all the worlds religions are based on NDE.

How many religions refer to God as the Light? Christianity does. Muslim does. The religion of the Mongols did. Buddhism has an interesting point of view;

"The Buddhist concept of reality is that nothing in this physical world is real. People consist of a "bundle" of habits, memories, sensations, desires, and so forth, which together delude people into thinking that he or she consists of a stable, lasting self. This false self is what reincarnates body after body. In Buddhism, life in a corporeal body is the source of all suffering. Hence, the goal is to obtain liberation. This means abandoning the false sense of self so that the bundle of memories and impulses disintegrates, leaving nothing to reincarnate and hence nothing to experience pain. "Nirvana" is the Buddhist term for liberation. Nirvana literally means extinction - an extinction that allows a person to become one with all there is - to become "God" (Buddha). To attain Nirvana, one must face and accept the concept that physical reality is not real; true reality comes through self-extinction which results in becoming one with the Clear Light."

http://www.tblog.com/templates/index.php?bid=mitchdolittle&static=435171

I have read of more then one person who has had a NDE say that the world we live in, here, at this time, is an illusion. It is not what life is. Our life is our soul, not our body. Our soul is eternal.

What religion does the Light practice? None of them and yet all of them. Those who have NDE see God as whatever they believed God to be in their experience here. Hence Christians see Christ, Muslims see Allah and Hindus see whatever God they believe in. Some, who feel that they are doomed for Hell will see Hell as they envision it. But they do not stay. They all are received by the Light because the Light is love. Love does not kill. Hate does.

Here is some reading for you. One of the more interesting NDE story is that of Mellen-Thomas Benedict.
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research21.html

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Welcome home xingu. I hope you had a nice visit with your grandson.

You say the Christian religion refers to God as the light. God and Jesus are occasionally referred to as a light or a lamp, as is God's word: "Your word is a lamp to my foot, and a light to my roadway." (Psalm 119:105) The implication here is for light to guide us in our everyday living and our search for truth.

The bible really doesn't give credence to the idea of life after death. The promise to Adam and Eve was for life on earth. Nowhere in the bible does it say God would change his mind with regard to his purpose.

I was wondering if NDE followers had any relation to Eckankar. Probably not, though I noticed a similarity. Cool

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I don't know anything about Eckankar. Have never heard of him till you mentioned him. I will have to look him up.

I had a nice time with my daughter and her new son. My wife is still down there helping her as she had a Caesarean.

You say you have eight with one on the way. That must keep you busy, especially at Christmas time.

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A brief look at Eckankar makes me think that it has a lot in common with NDE.

Many NDEr's had turned to religion after their experience and rejected it. They didn't like its rigidity. They said the God in the Bible is not like The Light.

From "Lessons from the Light" by Kenneth Ring;

"Their (NDEr's) religious orientation tends to change, too, and become more universalistic, inclusive, and spiritual in its expression. In most instances, moreover, the fear of death is completely extinguished and a deep-rooted conviction, based on their direct experience, that some form of life after death awaits us, becomes unshakeable and a source of enormous comfort."

From Steve;
" I love God more than anything. But I almost can't go to church. I can't sit through a class..I can't relate to the shame and guilt in the lessons. The discussions on guilt and sin don't hold any relevance for me, and don't make me happy. They don't fit into any of the experiences (NDE) I've had..I tried opening these subjects gently and cautiously with local church leaders and they don't respond well. So I drop it."

From Peggy;
"Raised a Baptist, she felt a pull to return to her religion, but after a few months found that she could no longer relate to what she describes as "traditional Christian dogma'".

From the forward;
"For NDEr's, the Golden Rule is no longer just a commandment one is taught to obey, but rather an indisputable law of nature, as inevitable as gravity. They know it is the way the universe works because they have experienced it firsthand in suffering directly the effects of their actions on others. Though they do not feel punished or judged for their prior misdeeds, they do receive back as part of their life review everything they have given out, measure for measure."

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Please understand that God does not ALLOW anybody to go to hell. Rather, man chooses to go there on his own. You can see the thought pattern of those who reject Christ in the first 3 chapters of the book of Romans. The wrath of God is revealed against the unrighteous because man rejects the creator and worships the creation (Romans 1:18-20). Men profess to be wise in their own eyes (V. 22), and exchange the glory of God for created things. These people then continue into a downward spiral of sin that is listed in verse 28-31, sins in which all of us can relate. Not only do they participate in these sins, but also they approve of those who do them (v. 32). Not only do men have the creation of the world to see God's power, but they also have their consciences convicting them of their sin (v. 14,15). In the end, man is left without excuse that we deserve to die, and we stand condemned in front of God.

Jesus Christ came in the flesh so that "you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:30,31). This is another witness to God's existence and also stands to condemn those men who choose to reject Christ as the Son of God. Because Christ came to pay the price of sin, and that He came to "explain the father" (John 1:18), man has no excuse for rejecting him. Men choose to go to hell because they reject Christ, not because God allows men to go to hell. God has paid the price, revealed Himself to all, and now men are "without excuse" (Rom. 1:20). God allows people to be born to give them the opportunity to believe, but it is man's responsibility to make that choice. What kind of God would He be if He did not give man the opportunity to place his faith in the Lord?

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Why didn't God warn Adam and Eve about the hellish barbecue before they sinned? It would seem only fair.
OH, and welcome to the forum yoyomaa! Very Happy

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yoyomaa wrote:

The wrath of God is revealed against the unrighteous because man rejects the creator and worships the creation (Romans 1:18-20). Men profess to be wise in their own eyes (V. 22), and exchange the glory of God for created things.

Here you have just described a weakness of God of the Bible.

He's vain. He demands you recognize his glory or he will let you go to Hell.

By your own words he's an angry God. Vengeful. Cruel, in that he will not prevent you from going to Hell unless you grovel to him.

I find it strange that we Must, and that is with a Capital M, praise a God that behaves in this manner when we hold humans in contempt for this same behavior.

yoyomaa wrote:

Jesus Christ came in the flesh so that "you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:30,31).

Humans have been on this earth for about 150,000 years. In all those years prior to Christ did God of the Bible refuse to allow humans to "have life in His name?"

yoyomaa wrote:

Because Christ came to pay the price of sin, and that He came to "explain the father" (John 1:18), man has no excuse for rejecting him.

There is no price that has to be paid for sin. Ask all the Christians in this country what sin is and you will get a multitude of answers. Sin is in the eyes of the beholder.

Did you know you'll go to Hell if you go to church on Sunday?

Or if you don't believe Joseph Smith was the last messenger sent by God?

Or if.or if..

yoyomaa wrote:

Men choose to go to hell because they reject Christ, not because God allows men to go to hell. God has paid the price, revealed Himself to all, and now men are "without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).

Men do not choose to go to Hell by rejecting Christ. The only people who believe that are those who made the rule that you'll go to Hell if you reject Christ. Will all Muslims, Hindus and Buddhist go to Hell?

yoyomaa wrote:

God allows people to be born to give them the opportunity to believe, but it is man's responsibility to make that choice. What kind of God would He be if He did not give man the opportunity to place his faith in the Lord?

Here's the situation you described.

"Yoyomaa, I have a gun pointed at your head. Give me your money or I'll blow your eyes out."

So yoyomaa is thinking; "if I refuse this offer of surrendering my hard earned money I will be destroyed. However if I accept and gladly contribute my earnings to this wonderful gentleman I will live."

So the God of the Bible is giving us a great deal here. He is putting us on earth for one reason only, to accept his deal of a lifetime or to reject it. In doing so he is holding a gun to our heads. The gun is called Hell. And we have the free will to say yea or nay.

What a fantastic God. It makes me look at armed thugs in a whole new light.

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C'mon Xingu; we both know there is no hell.

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Quote:

Why didn't God warn Adam and Eve about the hellish barbecue before they sinned? It would seem only fair.

Didn't he say in Genesis that if they ate of the fruit, they would surely die?

Quote:

Here you have just described a weakness of God of the Bible.

He's vain. He demands you recognize his glory or he will let you go to Hell.

By your own words he's an angry God. Vengeful. Cruel, in that he will not prevent you from going to Hell unless you grovel to him.

I find it strange that we Must, and that is with a Capital M, praise a God that behaves in this manner when we hold humans in contempt for this same behavior.

This is not vanity, you are either with him, or against him.

Quote:

Did you know you'll go to Hell if you go to church on Sunday?

Or if you don't believe Joseph Smith was the last messenger sent by God?

How can you even start to believe that your arguments will hold up? It is obvious you have zero understanding of the bible. Here's a tip, read the whole thing before you start to even try to attack it.

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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