If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Yes the Bible does an excellent job of giving its God a bad name.

It makes one wonder, would a God of pure love write such a book that would make him look so cruel and stupid?

0 Replies

I refer you to the signature of Phoenix32890: "Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." Ayn Rand

0 Replies

reply
You guys are condemning something you have no acquaintance with.

Shakespeare writes a lot of nasty stuff too but he's not nasty.

The bible is a mirror, it reflects back what/who is looking into it.

"According to your faith be it unto you."

It's bible thumpers who give it a bad name, but only among those who are willing to believe the worst about the bottom line...the source...however you want to name him...God...

God scourges every son he receives, but that is a metaphor...no pain no gain, that's just how it is, our "light afflictions work for us."

0 Replies

Re: reply

shunammite wrote:

You guys are condemning something you have no acquaintance with.

Shakespeare writes a lot of nasty stuff too but he's not nasty.

The bible is a mirror, it reflects back what/who is looking into it.

"According to your faith be it unto you."

It's bible thumpers who give it a bad name, but only among those who are willing to believe the worst about the bottom line...the source...however you want to name him...God...

God scourges every son he receives, but that is a metaphor...no pain no gain, that's just how it is, our "light afflictions work for us."

Yeah, what you said. . .

0 Replies

First off Shakespeare did not write Shakespeare; most probably it was Edward de Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford (1550-1604), but that may never be known for sure.

Second, the author of Shakespeare works was a human writing about humans. And like many parts of the Bible it was fiction based on true events. That has no bearing on the authors moral makeup. The author of Shakespeare did not say he, the author, killed children in the same manner that God of the Bible boasts of slaughtering whole populations.

I can fully understand the portrait of God if the Bible was written by people trying to humanize God so they may better understand him. I can understand them using or creating a God to give their rules and laws authority. I can understand the Bible if it is written by ignorant and superstitious people who thought all calamities are Gods punishment for not following those laws. I can understand the Bible if humans used their created God to give them justification to kill and slaughter men, women and children. We still do that today with all the wars we fight in.

But the Bible makes no sense whatsoever if the author is God. For what is God saying? I put the souls into Egyptians then I killed them. I put souls into the Canaanites and then I had my Jews slaughter them. And I know that most souls I put on earth will never accept my rules so I will inflict a most horrible punishment on them.

Who will be damned and who will not. From a Seven Day Adventist viewpoint all who go to church on Sunday will rot in Hell.

So let us suppose, for grins, that is true. Then why would God put souls into humans that will bought up in a culture in which they will be taught to go to church on Sunday? So he can send them to Hell?

In effect, no matter what your beliefs are, if you believe in a Hell then God is condemning to Hell a vast majority of the human population the minute they are born.

Free will means you have the right to choose what you want to believe in. That decision is usually made for you by your family, communities or countries culture, not by what is God's one and only command, whatever that may be.

0 Replies

reply
Well...it's a long complicated book. As are the works of Shakespeare.

And in the end what does it matter who writes what, what matters is, is it true or is it not?

And we find out...by experience.

I have found both Mr. Shakespeare and Mr. Bible to be very reliable.

But not if you leave out parts of Mr. Bible...man does not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD...

And most men leave out big chunks...

Likewise they opt to honor some men and despise others, in the name of "god"...but actually it says Honor all men, I Pet 2:17 and He that despiseth despiseth not man but God, I Thess 4:8 and God is mighty and despiseth not any, Job 36:5.

He does scourge his sons though...but we learn from our experience that the weak become strong by being "exercised"...this sore travail hath God given to the sons of men to be exercised thereby, Eccl 1:13.

People who use the bible as a reason to condemn others...are in a state of condemnation themselves...and do not realize what they are doing...if they had known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.....

His crucifixion is an on-going process...for thy sake are we killed all the day long...but what God kills (it had to be alive once to be "killed") he resurrects...

Real Life cannot die. It is Eternal. The Body they may kill, God's Truth abideth still, that's Luther though not the bible a mighty fortress...

0 Replies

xingu wrote:

First off Shakespeare did not write Shakespeare; most probably it was Edward de Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford (1550-1604), but that may never be known for sure.

Not relevant.

xingu wrote:

Second, the author of Shakespeare works was a human writing about humans. And like many parts of the Bible it was fiction based on true events. That has no bearing on the authors moral makeup. The author of Shakespeare did not say he, the author, killed children in the same manner that God of the Bible boasts of slaughtering whole populations.

You paint the entire bible with the same brush, without specifying any particular instance.

xingu wrote:

I can fully understand the portrait of God if the Bible was written by people trying to humanize God so they may better understand him. I can understand them using or creating a God to give their rules and laws authority. I can understand the Bible if it is written by ignorant and superstitious people who thought all calamities are Gods punishment for not following those laws. I can understand the Bible if humans used their created God to give them justification to kill and slaughter men, women and children. We still do that today with all the wars we fight in.

But the Bible makes no sense whatsoever if the author is God. For what is God saying? I put the souls into Egyptians then I killed them. I put souls into the Canaanites and then I had my Jews slaughter them. And I know that most souls I put on earth will never accept my rules so I will inflict a most horrible punishment on them.

Who will be damned and who will not. From a Seven Day Adventist viewpoint all who go to church on Sunday will rot in Hell.

So let us suppose, for grins, that is true. Then why would God put souls into humans that will bought up in a culture in which they will be taught to go to church on Sunday? So he can send them to Hell?

In effect, no matter what your beliefs are, if you believe in a Hell then God is condemning to Hell a vast majority of the human population the minute they are born.

You make several assumptions here without justifying your premises. I'll take two: First, you assume that God puts souls into humans. If you read the bible carefully, you would understand that humans and animals ARE souls and that souls, being mortal, can die. Death is the punishment God ordained for disobedience, nothing more. Hence there is no Hell. You also assumed that the nations surrounding the Israelites were innocent. Let's just look at one of them, the Canaanites:
"Baal was the most prominent of the deities worshiped by the Canaanites. The Canaanite goddess Anath is depicted in the Baal Epic from Ugarit as effecting a general slaughter of men and then decorating herself with suspended heads and attaching men's hands to her girdle while she joyfully wades in their blood. " (Text not mine.)

Then there was the practice of child sacrifice. According to Merrill F. Unger: "Excavations in Palestine have uncovered piles of ashes and remains of infant skeletons in cemeteries around heathen altars, pointing to the widespread practice of this cruel abomination." (Archaeology and the Old Testament, 1964, p. 279) Halley's Bible Handbook (1964, p. 161) says: "Canaanites worshipped, by immoral indulgence, as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods; and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods. It seems that, in large measure, the land of Canaan had become a sort of Sodom and Gomorrah on a national scale. . . . Did a civilization of such abominable filth and brutality have any right longer to exist? . . . Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that God did not destroy them sooner than he did."
So,are you saying you would have preferred to live in Canaan?

xingu wrote:

Free will means you have the right to choose what you want to believe in. That decision is usually made for you by your family, communities or countries culture, not by what is God's one and only command, whatever that may be.

We do have free will. In that you are correct.

0 Replies

So you say the Bible says God does not put souls into human bodies and souls can be killed.

Well that's even more evidence that the Bible is irrelevant and unknowing; hence not the word of a God.

Why do you suppose we have souls? Why not just have bodies, without souls?

NDEr's say souls come from God's (the real one) dimension. They can't interact in this dimension without human bodies. If they could we would not need bodies.

Souls don't die nor are they killed. Some NDEr's say the Light (the real God) is the sum total of all souls in existence. We are all a tiny part of God. We are all brother and sister souls.

Things that separate us in this dimension are artificial; religion, nationality, race, etc. When our time is done here we all go back home. No severe judgment by a killer God; just a return to the Lights love.

In the Lights dimension there are no Christian or Muslim souls; no Chinese or American souls. All the artificial stuff we create here, including Gods and religion, are left here.

Much nicer, more humane and far more relational then anything the Bible says; don't you think. For some reason you Christians love retribution and vengeance.

Child sacrifice was practiced by many religions throughout the world, including the early Jews (remember Abraham and Isaac?). To say the Canaanites were "such abominable filth and brutality" is unfair as you are passing judgment on them using our standards and morals. Had you have been born amongst them you would have behaved the same way. After all you are a product of your environment just as they were.

Oh, by the way, if your going to pass judgment on the Canaanites for sacrificing their first born how about your God for demanding that disobedient children be stoned to death.

Is this something one would expect from a God of love?

You said my statement on Shakespeare was not relevant. It was because the statement was made that Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare. Very strong evidence that he didn't.

Fictionalize stories in the Bible; how about the Flood. Most probably based on an event that happened long before the Bible was written but by no means the way the Bible describes it.

Moses and Egypt; fictionalized but perhaps based on an Egyptian who escaped from Egypt after the death of the monotheist pharaoh Akhenaton (1358 BCE). But we'll never know for sure. It also appears that the tribe of Levi, or part of it, was in Egypt, but under what circumstances is unknown.

0 Replies

xingu wrote:

So you say the Bible says God does not put souls into human bodies and souls can be killed.

Well that's even more evidence that the Bible is irrelevant and unknowing; hence not the word of a God.

Why do you suppose we have souls? Why not just have bodies, without souls?

We don't have souls; we are souls.

xingu wrote:

NDEr's say souls come from God's (the real one) dimension. They can't interact in this dimension without human bodies. If they could we would not need bodies.

Souls don't die nor are they killed. Some NDEr's say the Light (the real God) is the sum total of all souls in existence. We are all a tiny part of God. We are all brother and sister souls.

Things that separate us in this dimension are artificial; religion, nationality, race, etc. When our time is done here we all go back home. No severe judgment by a killer God; just a return to the Lights love.

In the Lights dimension there are no Christian or Muslim souls; no Chinese or American souls. All the artificial stuff we create here, including Gods and religion, are left here.

Quick question: ( 2 actually, I guess) Has anyone ever come back from an NDE after true brain death? Is there anything about NDE that can't be explained by endorphins?

xingu wrote:

Much nicer, more humane and far more relational then anything the Bible says; don't you think. For some reason you Christians love retribution and vengeance.

Really. I hadn't noticed where the bible supports your assertion, though many preachers might make you believe so. There are, however, warnings about the consequences of wrongdoing. Look at it this way. If your parents told you not to play in the street because you might get hit by a car and you disobeyed your parents, would you fault them if you were injured by a car? One redeeming quality of true christians and of God is that they won't deny you acceptance just because you bear the scars of disobedience.

xingu wrote:

Child sacrifice was practiced by many religions throughout the world, including the early Jews (remember Abraham and Isaac?).

Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac.

xingu wrote:

To say the Canaanites were "such abominable filth and brutality" is unfair as you are passing judgment on them using our standards and morals. Had you have been born amongst them you would have behaved the same way. After all you are a product of your environment just as they were.

But you can pass judgment on the Hebrews, eh?

xingu wrote:

Oh, by the way, if your going to pass judgment on the Canaanites for sacrificing their first born how about your God for demanding that disobedient children be stoned to death.

The canaanites sacrificed their children (some of them quite old enough to know what was happening to them) by placing them on the outstretched arms of Molech whilst the priest guided the innocent victims into the fire. They burned them alive. Disobedient Israelite children were quite another thing. And I can't imagine any parent who would not try everything in his power to prevent his children from having to undergo such punishment.

xingu wrote:

Is this something one would expect from a God of love?

Yeah, what you said.

xingu wrote:

You said my statement on Shakespeare was not relevant. It was because the statement was made that Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare. Very strong evidence that he didn't.

I didn't say your statement might not be true; it just doesn't matter who wrote his works. Does it?

xingu wrote:

Fictionalize stories in the Bible; how about the Flood. Most probably based on an event that happened long before the Bible was written but by no means the way the Bible describes it.

The flood (The whole book of Genesis) actually did happen before Moses wrote the Pentateuch. How did Moses know what to write? Another story.

xingu wrote:

Moses and Egypt; fictionalized but perhaps based on an Egyptian who escaped from Egypt after the death of the monotheist pharaoh Akhenaton (1358 BCE). But we'll never know for sure. It also appears that the tribe of Levi, or part of it, was in Egypt, but under what circumstances is unknown.

If you count the years of the bible, you would find the Jewish residence in Egypt to be from the mid 20th century to the late 16th century B.C. I'm just saying that to give you dates to throw darts at. You could check it yourself, if you would dare to seriously read the bible.

0 Replies

The human is made up of two separate and distinct entities; body and soul. A body without a soul is a shell; lifeless.

Quote:

Quick question: ( 2 actually, I guess) Has anyone ever come back from an NDE after true brain death? Is there anything about NDE that can't be explained by endorphins?

One does not have to be brain dead to have a NDE. Whoever told you that is giving you bad information. The same for endorphins. It has nothing to do with NDE.

If seeing and experiencing a travel through a dark tunnel is all there is to NDE I would say you have a good argument and I would seriously question NDE's myself. However Out of Body Experiences go hand in hand with NDE and there is no way anyone can say endorphins cause OBE.

OBE have been experienced by blind people, children as well as adults from different religious and non-religious beliefs. At no time did anyone who had a NDE and an accompanying OBE say they thought they were hallucinating, or the experience was not real.

If you want to know more about it you will have to read some books on the subject.

I have noticed among conservative Christians that they like to think of God as being our Daddy and we as disobedient children. Well in or culture of discipline that should not surprise me. Humans have always tried to make a human out of God. I guess if you can turn God into a human he would be easier to understand , comprehend and manipulate in any fashion one chooses. But God is not human and he does not abide by our cultural ways and laws. We create all laws including "God's Laws". Really, do you think God wrote all those laws in Deuteronomy or did humans write them and give God authorship so they would have authority.

I suppose if there is any rule that comes from the Light it is the Golden Rule. I would guess having humans love and respect other humans is the one thing the Light would want of us.

Abraham did not sacrifice his but he was not shocked that God asked him to. Being as how child sacrifice was common among the people for that area Abraham would have done as the Canaanites. Probably Abrahams parents or grandparents sacrificed children. We don't know but at some point some group of people for some unknown reason decided that they would substitute certain animals in place of children. Why, who and when are lost in history but cultures always come up with good stories to try to explain what they have forgotten or don't know.

How did the world start; how did we get here; who are we; these question have an infinite number of answers from an infinite number of cultures that have existed it the last 150,000 years. Most all of them have been lost in time but you can bet they all had a story.

http://www.worldandi.com/public/1998/cljul98.htm

Tomorrow I'm heading for TN. Our daughter just had a son so we're off to see the new grandson. I'll be back next week.

0 Replies

xingu wrote:

The human is made up of two separate and distinct entities; body and soul. A body without a soul is a shell; lifeless.

Since this is a thread started by a bible question, I'll have to say we won't resolve this based on non-biblical premises.

xingu wrote:

One does not have to be brain dead to have a NDE. Whoever told you that is giving you bad information. The same for endorphins. It has nothing to do with NDE.

I didn't actually say you had to be brain dead. Actually, all I wanted was some clarification of your axioms.

xingu wrote:

If seeing and experiencing a travel through a dark tunnel is all there is to NDE I would say you have a good argument and I would seriously question NDE's myself. However Out of Body Experiences go hand in hand with NDE and there is no way anyone can say endorphins cause OBE. OBE have been experienced by blind people, children as well as adults from different religious and non-religious beliefs. At no time did anyone who had a NDE and an accompanying OBE say they thought they were hallucinating, or the experience was not real.

If you want to know more about it you will have to read some books on the subject.

I'd rather have you tell me. Is there any correspondence between what you believe and the followers of Eckankar?

xingu wrote:

I have noticed among conservative Christians that they like to think of God as being our Daddy and we as disobedient children. Well in or culture of discipline that should not surprise me. Humans have always tried to make a human out of God. I guess if you can turn God into a human he would be easier to understand , comprehend and manipulate in any fashion one chooses. But God is not human and he does not abide by our cultural ways and laws. We create all laws including "God's Laws". Really, do you think God wrote all those laws in Deuteronomy or did humans write them and give God authorship so they would have authority.

Good point; however God is not human. That He gave us His qualities of love, justice and wisdom is the way in which we are created in His image. The fact that you are incensed by the injustices you see perpetrated in the name of religion is ample proof of my claim that God is also outraged. Where we fail to communicate is that I haven't been able to show you that what you believe about the Christian religion comes from what you have observed, namely the perversions of the clergy. If you were to go back and REALLY examine the scriptures, you would find this not to be so.

xingu wrote:

I suppose if there is any rule that comes from the Light it is the Golden Rule. I would guess having humans love and respect other humans is the one thing the Light would want of us.

Abraham did not sacrifice his but he was not shocked that God asked him to. Being as how child sacrifice was common among the people for that area Abraham would have done as the Canaanites. Probably Abrahams parents or grandparents sacrificed children. We don't know but at some point some group of people for some unknown reason decided that they would substitute certain animals in place of children. Why, who and when are lost in history but cultures always come up with good stories to try to explain what they have forgotten or don't know.

How did the world start; how did we get here; who are we; these question have an infinite number of answers from an infinite number of cultures that have existed it the last 150,000 years. Most all of them have been lost in time but you can bet they all had a story.

http://www.worldandi.com/public/1998/cljul98.htm

Tomorrow I'm heading for TN. Our daughter just had a son so we're off to see the new grandson. I'll be back next week.

Have a good trip. I'm leaving next month for CA to visit my first granddaughter after 8 grandsons! Very Happy

0 Replies

Denying what xingu said about Abraham being willing to sacrifice his own son is not helpful. He was willing to sacrifice his son when God told him to.

Likewise there are loads of parts in the old testament and a few in the new which are hard to explain away to make them seem not harsh and unfair at times.

0 Replies

revel wrote:

Denying what xingu said about Abraham being willing to sacrifice his own son is not helpful. He was willing to sacrifice his son when God told him to.

Likewise there are loads of parts in the old testament and a few in the new which are hard to explain away to make them seem not harsh and unfair at times.

OK, let's take a look at the situation with Abraham: God made a covenant with Abraham in the 12th chapter of Genesis that ". . . I shall make a great nation out of you and I shall bless you and I will make your name great; and prove yourself a blessing. And I will bless those who bless you, and him that calls down evil upon you I shall curse, and all the families of the ground will certainly bless themselves by means of you." (Genesis 12:2,3)

Subsequently, Isaac was identified as the person through whom the covenant would be fulfilled. "Then God said to Abraham: "Do not let anything that Sarah keeps saying to you be displeasing to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her voice, because it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be." (Genesis 21:12)

Keep in mind that Abraham had a close relationship with God. Everything God had told him had come true. Abraham left a comfortable home in Ur to travel and live in tents where God told him to live. He had absolute faith that God would fulfill the promise he made in regards to Isaac, even, if necessary, to restore Isaac's life, which, no doubt is why Genesis 22:1 reads, "Now after these things it came about that the [true] God put Abraham to the test. . ."

So why are we told of this incident? Moses could have left it out of his writing, thinking it would cast God in a poor light.

For a moment, put yourself in Abraham's shoes. Sure, he had faith, but he dearly loved Isaac. Yet he was willing to give up his chosen son, the son of the covenant, in order to fulfill God's purpose. Do you see any parallell here in God's willingness to sacrifice His only begotten son, Jesus?

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

revel wrote:
Denying what xingu said about Abraham being willing to sacrifice his own son is not helpful. He was willing to sacrifice his son when God told him to.

Likewise there are loads of parts in the old testament and a few in the new which are hard to explain away to make them seem not harsh and unfair at times.
OK, let's take a look at the situation with Abraham: God made a covenant with Abraham in the 12th chapter of Genesis that ". . . I shall make a great nation out of you and I shall bless you and I will make your name great; and prove yourself a blessing. And I will bless those who bless you, and him that calls down evil upon you I shall curse, and all the families of the ground will certainly bless themselves by means of you." (Genesis 12:2,3)

Subsequently, Isaac was identified as the person through whom the covenant would be fulfilled. "Then God said to Abraham: "Do not let anything that Sarah keeps saying to you be displeasing to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her voice, because it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be." (Genesis 21:12)

Keep in mind that Abraham had a close relationship with God. Everything God had told him had come true. Abraham left a comfortable home in Ur to travel and live in tents where God told him to live. He had absolute faith that God would fulfill the promise he made in regards to Isaac, even, if necessary, to restore Isaac's life, which, no doubt is why Genesis 22:1 reads, "Now after these things it came about that the [true] God put Abraham to the test. . ."

So why are we told of this incident? Moses could have left it out of his writing, thinking it would cast God in a poor light.

For a moment, put yourself in Abraham's shoes. Sure, he had faith, but he dearly loved Isaac. Yet he was willing to give up his chosen son, the son of the covenant, in order to fulfill God's purpose. Do you see any parallell here in God's willingness to sacrifice His only begotten son, Jesus?

I understand what you are saying and I agree completely.

However for those who don't believe it still don't make it seem any more nice that Abraham was willing sacrifice his son even if Abraham did believe that God would restore his son, it was a harsh thing to do to your own child.

Also for those who do not accept that Isaac was the chosen one, this argument might not go over so well either.

Some people would argue that since Moses died in deut. it leaves the author of the first five books in question. I personally just assume that Joshua must of finished Deut.

I am just saying that I went through years of talking about and discussing the Bible with people who did not believe and was willing to tell you why with proving it wrong and full of contradictions and others just proving it a book full of hate and bigotry. It is best therefore to just say what it is and let others make of it what they will. (least that is what I came away with)

I had trouble enough with just those that believed. :wink:

I don't believe in a lot of things that most Christians in today's society believe. For instance I don't believe in the second kingdom, I believe the kingdom is here now and I don't believe that it is a physcial kingdom that must needs be fought in government or wars. I believe the laws are simply written in our hearts not the laws of the land nor do I believe that we must take up the sword to fight. I could go on but I think I probably alienated all sides enough for one saturday morning.

0 Replies

I was giving a response based on the original queston of the thread, which presupposed a biblical answer. The fact that you did not believe what you were told by nominal christians is a credit to your intelligence, but is not in itself a disproof of the bible. Nominal christians would as soon leave their bibles on the coffee table as submit themselves to its wisdom.

As for the kingdom, check Daniel 2:44, an interesting place to begin research.

0 Replies

(sry i came into this really late)

The bible says that there is one way and one way only into heaven. It is through Jesus Christ. Even Jesus says that, he is God, part of the trinity. The only way into heaven is to accept that Jesus died on a cross, after living a perfect life. He did this specifically because he loves us, but sin separates us from him. He wanted to experience the pain of humanity. Accepting and praying to him, that you are sorry for being a sinner, and asking him into your heart, because he died as a holy perfect sacrifice. That is all one needs for heaven. Grace will always overcome. Works will never get one into the kingdom. They would never cover the sins, because ever person will do more good than bad. So Jesus steps in, and that was the birth of grace. Very Happy

0 Replies

Welcome hislifemyransom; Interesting post. Tell me where in the bible you will find the word 'trinity' or Jesus claiming anything other than being God's firstborn son and you will have my undivided attention.

0 Replies

"He wanted to experience the pain of humanity"

By He you mean God
How do you know this?
You dont
Its pure speculation
If you did know you would know the mind of God
You have no idea of the mind of God
Or you are God
Just idle speculation, like the others.

0 Replies

I've always wanted to know why Hey-Zeus looks like a white boy from Westphalia, as opposed to a Jew from Palestine. Is that just a little weird, or am I over-reacting?

If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know