80
   

If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 2 May, 2015 10:51 am
@InfraBlue,
Are you supposing the early Christians were using the Platonic concept of hades as an abode for conscious dead?

When did they get hit with the stupid stick?
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Sat 2 May, 2015 12:45 pm
@neologist,
Hellenic beliefs and ideas about Hades far predate Plato. The writers of the New Testament were Hellenic Jews and Gentiles who wrote within the context of their culture, your puerile rejoinder notwithstanding.
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 2 May, 2015 02:21 pm
@InfraBlue,
Those Jews familiar enough with the Hebrew canon to have translated the Septuagint were well aware of the fact that the soul does not survive death and those who die lie unconscious in sheol, mankind's common grave.

Even if I did not believe in God, I would be intelligent enough to know that.
AdaG
 
  1  
Sat 2 May, 2015 02:41 pm
@neologist,
Oh no! That's the world law system, punishing finite sins with infinite punishment, for instance, a murderer gets a sentence that he can never see its end; a life or death sentence. Hell isn't for a finite sin, it is for the infinite sinner. Every human being lives in a state of finite sin : Romans 7:21-25. Grace takes care of the finite sins, moreover we are made right by Romans 3:22 but then again Romans 6:1-2. The infinite sinner on the other hand, lives a life of continuous sin due to his thinking and therefore will face an infinite punishment.
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 2 May, 2015 02:53 pm
@AdaG,
I'm glad you are not God. My God acquits those who die from their sin.
BTW, I don't recall seeing the words 'infinite sin' in my Bible. Where is that?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 2 May, 2015 02:54 pm
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGdknueON52tnaT3vtMHBY7bOZ8s7nTHEBQi2S2SyboFdolAM8
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 2 May, 2015 03:18 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Hey! I was going to say the same thing about your last exchange with the cobble.
0 Replies
 
AdaG
 
  1  
Sat 2 May, 2015 03:33 pm
@neologist,
So where did you get the words finite sin and infinite punishment from?... or did you ask me all that so you could like the Pharisees, tell me just how much I don't know God and you do? Love you all the same after all God is his word and God is Love and my Loving simply means I know God and I am of him. Oh well...judgement according to Jesus will be as simple as this:
For I was an hungred, and
ye gave me meat: I was thirsty,
and ye gave me drink: I was a
stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I
was sick, and ye visited me: I
was in prison, and ye came
unto me.
Then shall the righteous
answer him, saying, Lord,
when saw we thee an hungred,
and fed thee? or thirsty, and
gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a
stranger, and took thee in? or
naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick,
or in prison, and came unto
thee?
And the King shall answer
and say unto them, Verily I say
unto you, Inasmuch as ye have
done it unto one of the least of
these my brethren, ye have
done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto
them on the left hand, Depart
from me, ye cursed, into
everlasting fire, prepared for
the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and
ye gave me no meat: I was
thirsty, and ye gave me no
drink:
I was a stranger, and ye
took me not in: naked, and ye
clothed me not: sick, and in
prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer
him, saying, Lord, when saw
we thee an hungred, or athirst,
or a stranger, or naked, or sick,
or in prison, and did not
minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them,
saying, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye did it not to
one of the least of these, ye did
it not to me.
And these shall go away
into everlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life
eternal. (Matthew 25 KJV)
So you see people it isn't all about the Greek word for hades and Sheol or finite/infinite sins. Its about the greatest commandment which is Love but this cannot be fulfilled by mere desire but through Jesus Christ who is the Love of God personified. Love y'all on a2k!
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 2 May, 2015 03:56 pm
@AdaG,
Infinite punishment. Everlasting punishment. It presupposes an immortal soul, a concept not supported by the Bible. I use the term to compare with a sinner's lifetime, indicating . . .

Finite sin

Infinite punishment for finite sin describes the nominal christians belief pretty well, I think. Well, you were willing to defend it as if it were God's word.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 2 May, 2015 08:25 pm
@neologist,
Again, the words and their meanings used by those New Testament authors do not support your assertions, your personal boasts notwithstanding.
neologist
 
  1  
Sun 3 May, 2015 11:00 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Again, the words and their meanings used by those New Testament authors do not support your assertions, your personal boasts notwithstanding.
The Christian authors relied on the Hebrew canon. They quoted from it. Jesus quoted from it. Nothing in the Hebrew texts supports belief in an immortal soul. Therefore, the condition of the dead was plain to the apostles and first century Christians: When you're dead, you're dead.

Well, how did the Jews, who were aware of the Edenic Promise and Abrahamic Covenant, deal with the universal human trait - the perception of indefinite future time? They used - and still use - a term not in the canon:

The concept Olam ha-ba, or "life to become" is a philosophical construction describing the end times, the messianic age, and bodily resurrection as well as -in the minds of some - a heavenly resurrection.

I've read that some believe those events are tied in with Gan Eden -the Garden of Eden - or, 'Paradise of Pleasure' . Amazing, to me. There is so much convoluted reasoning attatched to our human fear of nothingness, our search for extended consciousness, that we forget it is part of God's promise from the very beginning. The Edenic mutiny did not remove God's purpose for the earth.
neologist
 
  1  
Sun 3 May, 2015 01:57 pm
@InfraBlue,
AdamLOV wrote:
Eternal life would be eternal suffering, because the two are synonymous.
InfraBlue wrote:
You mean having to live with a bunch of Jehova's Witnesses forever?
And constantly losing to me and Carole in pinochle . . . .
But we do serve beer .. . wine sometimes.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sun 3 May, 2015 05:56 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Nothing in the Hebrew texts supports belief in an immortal soul. Therefore, the condition of the dead was plain to the apostles and first century Christians: When you're dead, you're dead.

These are assertions and conjectures that are not supported by the Hebrew texts themselves, your dogma notwithstanding.

The Hebrew texts make reference to the dead, their spirits and their abode, e.g. Job 26:5, Psalm 88:11, Isaiah 14:9, etc.
neologist wrote:
…the universal human trait - the perception of indefinite future time…

This is another unsupported assertion that is irrelevant to the discussion of the words at hand.
neologist wrote:
Well, how did the Jews, who were aware of the Edenic Promise and Abrahamic Covenant, deal with the universal human trait - the perception of indefinite future time? They used - and still use - a term not in the canon:

The concept Olam ha-ba, or "life to become" is a philosophical construction describing the end times, the messianic age, and bodily resurrection as well as -in the minds of some - a heavenly resurrection.

I've read that some believe those events are tied in with Gan Eden -the Garden of Eden - or, 'Paradise of Pleasure' . Amazing, to me. There is so much convoluted reasoning attatched to our human fear of nothingness, our search for extended consciousness, that we forget it is part of God's promise from the very beginning. The Edenic mutiny did not remove God's purpose for the earth.

O-kay.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 01:37 pm
@izzythepush,
Were you saying Hillah is within Babylon city limits?

Oh.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 01:49 pm
@neologist,
Babylonian ruins are within Hillah's city limits.
neologist
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 04:37 pm
@izzythepush,
Hmm.

You're not one of those cab drivers like we have in Seattle, are you?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 05:08 pm
@neologist,
South of the river? At this time of night? You're having a laugh.
neologist
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 05:17 pm
@izzythepush,
Oh, right. It's morning there now, right?

We're getting ready for BarBeCue
izzythepush
 
  1  
Tue 5 May, 2015 02:59 am
@neologist,
Just.
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Tue 5 May, 2015 05:25 am
@InfraBlue,
Thank you Infra, sorry I am late back to the party, I had a lovely bank holiday weekend getaway with the family. You were right, I was indeed asking for the specific instances, and I appreciate your examples of the term Hades as used in the Greek scriptures.
You are also right that when discussing scripture, I do indeed conflate the two. The Greek translators saw fit to equate the two in their rendering, and I wouldn't imagine that anyone taught from the Septuagint would do otherwise.

Do you have data that condemns the notion or is your line of thought that the notion is a stretch of the data available?
 

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