When should you keep your mouth shut?

ossobuco wrote:

thethinkfactory wrote:
ossobuco wrote:

- their relationship has involved casual sex with no intent to bear a child by the woman and presumed nonintent by the man, who I am also presuming knew she was taking birth control pills. I don't say casual sex judgementally, as I am not against it generally.

I do not see how this fact is at all pertainant to the fact that you are pregnant. Birth Control is not 100% effective, yet when you have sex you have to know that becoming pregant is a risk (however remote). The fact that was not in your plan simply does not play into your decision. Accidents, and this is one, are never in your plan. However, after an accident has happened you have to deal with it.

As micro said on another topic "It's un-changable and nearly irrelevant now to dwell on that point." I think this applies to the fact that you did not plan this.

TTF

I was making observations of what I read, to myself, ttf, not points for delivery as argument. If my quoted observation would lead to any conclusion at all - and I didn't mean it to, I was just reviewing out loud, as it were - it might be that he, by default of both having casual sex and knowing his partner in sex was using birth control, was not actively hoping for a child.

Of course a woman can become pregnant even when having protected sex.
I did not say she did not have to deal with it.

You stated as such in your post Osso. I took it to be a fact to measured in the final analysis. My bad.

TTF

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BoGoWo wrote:

[a microscopic dead fetus is vastly preferable to a wretched human tragedy]

This is where I wonder. To be or not to be. Camus said it is the ONLY philosophical question.

I wonder if this is true. I have no answers - and I think were I to disagree with BoGoWo my statement would be as valid as his. I think that if you were to frame an existence with inconvieniences as wretched - you have already placed a value on it. Stoics would say you are not in control of that portion of your existence - only your thoughts and desires surrounding your existence.

That is also very easy to say sitting in my comfy chair and typing away on my laptop.

Something for further thought I guess.

TTF

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thethinkfactory wrote:

This in no way is to sway Micro or no - it is responding to EhBeth's post in a respectful manner to address her comment.

TTF

TTF, you've chosen, very neatly, to ignore the 'not simply' portion of my response. My primary concerns are with Micro's physical and emotional health, 'not simply' the issue of adoption benefits to others.

I agree fully with BoGoWo's point - which is a variant of the bumper sticker of yore.

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I did hack your comments - I was trying to extract one portion of it, deal with it directly, and respond to your comment.

I did not intend to take what you said out of context. I am sorry if it looked too 'neat'. Wink

I see more directly your point which is her health.

Do you think that you have ignored the complications of abortion?

I agree that pregnancy and childbirth are far from healthy for the mother - what about the alternative?

TTF

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TTF, please, we know you are against abortion. Moot point.

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ehBeth wrote:

Encouraging Micro to have a child so that someone else would be able to adopt seems wrong to me, not simply because there is a world of unwanted children, already born, needing families.

doesn't this reasoning also make it wrong for couples to have wanted children, when they could be adopting unwanted children instead?

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I know of two couples that have felt this way--and they have acted on their feelings by adopting.

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microbiologistgal wrote:

TTF, please, we know you are against abortion. Moot point.

Not a moot point if the argument was for health reasons.

Also, I don't know a single person that is 'for abortion'. It is like being 'for war'. I am for a womans right to choose - but the reasoning should be good, carefully thought out, and conscionable.

I assumed a lot in dealing with this topic - and for that I appologize. I am sure you have written me off as some sort of pro-life conservative. As a liberal pro-choice philosophy professor, I am sorry that is the case.

Good luck with your decision (if you believe in luck).

TTF

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It is a moot point in this discussion, as it provides no help for me to discuss your feelings on whether or not abortion is morally right. The thing about morals is that eveyone has their own. There are many posts regarding abortion where people are happy to debate the day long.

Far be it from you to decided whether or not my reasons are good or well thought out. Do you think I simply rolled out of bed one morning and decided to have an abortion? I am young, unmarried, and not financially ready for a child, among many other reasons. I do not wish to go through the physical and emmotional aspects of pregnancy to give the child up. If you and your wife wish to adopt, there are many children who need good homes. I do not appreciate attempts to make me feel guilty.

I do appreciate all of your other perspectives on the question at hand. You are obviously educated and well intentioned.

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Thanks. My intent was not to make you feel guilty. I appologize if that the way it came across.

It is a serious topic, I take it very seriously, and I feel so damned helpless in this particular case.

I have spoken my peice, iterated my arguments, and should have stopped long ago. I get the bit in my mouth sometimes.

TTF

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Mbg--

You express yourself clearly and with great civility. I hope you stay on A2K. You would be an asset.

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I agree completely, Noddy, though I will add I also value TTF. I have been in a similar situation which I don't particularly want to discuss, and appreciate efforts to speak while undergoing emotional waves, which we all have with questions near the bone.

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Osso--

I agree about TTF. Common sense and civility are assets for a good forum.

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I also agree with Noddy and Osso.

Welcome aboard ;-)

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yitwail wrote:

ehBeth wrote:
Encouraging Micro to have a child so that someone else would be able to adopt seems wrong to me, not simply because there is a world of unwanted children, already born, needing families.

doesn't this reasoning also make it wrong for couples to have wanted children, when they could be adopting unwanted children instead?

silly quoting myself, a bit like talking to yourself, which i also do from time to time, but i overlooked an obvious rebuttal to the original statement. having a child intending to give it up for adoption would be wrong only if the woman bearing the child believed that abortion was perfectly moral.

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BBB
It would be interesting to consider this topic with the following events dreamed up.

The woman learns she is pregnant and tells the father. The father is strongly prolife and does not want the mother to have an abortion. He files a lawsuit to prevent the abortion, getting the courts (government) involved.

Then what?

Another Terri Schiavo-type case re a fetus?

BBB

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Oy.

I really wish that sounded more far-fetched.

How's it going, microbiologistgal? Made a decision yet?

For me personally, the information that you have told some mutual friends strongly indicates that you need to take control of the situation and tell him yourself. Far too likely that he'll get wind of it even if you stay quiet.

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I don't think we have to worry about a right to life case just yet, as with Terri it was just here. In the case of a fetus, why it hasn't been able to be taken to court, the mother's body is at risk. It doesn't just invlove the baby. The government's ok with controlling one life, but they haven't yet figured out how to go to two . . .

The mutual friends are my best girlfriends so I trust them, but, I don't know. I think perhaps I'll tell him, but I will miss his friendship. I'll let you all know Thursday, and after my doc's appointment Saturday. Thanks Smile

When should you keep your mouth shut?

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