When should you keep your mouth shut?

Oops. That's in response to thinkfactory. I can appreciate ebrown's comment 100%. In a world of fairness and right, that would be the thing to do. Tell him because it's his child too. But what then? If you wanted the child and she said no, but we can still be friends, how would that sit with you?

0 Replies

I think that is the crux of it eoe and frankly where I was attempting to go the entire time.

I am naive at times in that I assume a lot when I answer a question. I assumed that by telling him you were going to weigh his input. If not - then don't tell. You are not going to consider him in the decision - don't consider him in the telling.

That is all.

TTF

0 Replies

eoe wrote:

I can appreciate ebrown's comment 100%. In a world of fairness and right, that would be the thing to do. Tell him because it's his child too. But what then? If you wanted the child and she said no, but we can still be friends, how would that sit with you?

Eoe,

I would still want to be told (and I feel strongly it would be wrong if I weren't told) in any circumstances.

Look, even if I didn't want her to have the abortion. Even if I was very upset.. so, what. I would have to deal with it. I would, as I do with many of the difficult parts of life, work it out deal with my feelings and be eventual resolve it.

That is a part of life... and I want the right to live all parts of my life.

But, by not telling me, you are keeping something that involves me. There is now something important that I know nothing about. I will never have the change to resolve this, I will never have the chance to grieve.

And don't forget, there is the possibility that the father may support her decision. This is clearly the best outcome for all involved.

Living life means accepting the good times with the bad times. I am reacting to the fact that you are hiding something that concerns this man from him without his consent.

If I didn't want the abortion, I may be angry, and I may not want to be friends...

But I would be able to live life honestly... and how can a friend keep such a big secret and not have it affect the friendship.

0 Replies

See ebrown - the only way I think you can live life honestly, if you are not going to consider his opinion in your decision, is to not tell him.

Honestly, you aren't going to consider his opinion - so honestly why are going to tell him.

It seems to be motivated by a mitigation of guilt on the tellers part rather than a consideration for his feelings.

For instance, Men tell thier wives, often, after they have had an affair because they feel guilty. What they want is some sort of forgiveness for an act. So, they come to a woman, wound her through the original news and then want something from her by asking for forgivenes. It seems egocentric and unencessary.

TTF

0 Replies

ebrown_p wrote:

Brooke,
Would you feel this way if you were on the other side of it?

If being on the other side meant that I ONLY had the right to know.....but I had ZERO rights to save my child and had to carry that with me for the rest of my life.......I absolutely would NOT want to know! But that is just me. As far as I am concerned, my "knowing" will serve no purpose. NOT knowing will save me a terrible grief that I would otherwise have to live with till I die, myself.

I only think the father should not know in instances where the mother knows with absolution, the father's say in the matter is mute.

0 Replies

TTF, what I was getting at is that discussing an issue when I am genuinely not at all sure of what to do helps uncover what I really think. "What I really think" can be buried under lots of confusing layers -- if it was evident at the outset, there would be no dilemma. But usually (not always) what happens is not that I start out thinking one thing and then my mind is changed by advice -- what usually happens is that the confusing layers are gradually removed in the course of asking for advice.

It can go either way. When someone advises me to do one thing, I might have a strong reaction against it -- that means something. Or someone may advise me to do another thing and I say "that's IT!" -- that means something, as well.

Either way, I think asking for advice and discussing the issue is a great way for someone who HAS NOT MADE UP THEIR MIND -- caps because that seems to keep getting overlooked -- to decide what to do.

Appreciating ebrown's posts here.

I think there are actually two overlapping but separate realms here:

1.) What would hurt him less?

This one is itself difficult. If he doesn't know and never finds out, he wouldn't be hurt. If he is not told, and finds out some way down the line, he'd likely be more hurt than if he was never told.

2.) What is ethically correct?

While it would seem that 2 would be dependent on 1, I think the fact that there is only a chance that he would find out somehow means that he has to be told. Ethics doesn't seem to have much room for "I hope he doesn't find out."

0 Replies

On a personal note hopefully to add perspective to this discussion....

When I first started an intimate relationship the woman who would become my wife we talked about birth control including abortion. At this time there was no indication that the relationship would become permanent. I had mixed feelings but would have been able to accept an abortion if it were clear our relationship could not support it.

My wife is strongly against abortion, at least as a personal and moral issue. She was shocked that the topic even came up, as for her abortion was out of the question under any circumstances.

The effect was that I was very careful about birth control. But, I also had to accept the possbility that I may have a child earlier than I would have liked.

I think that any couple in an intimate relationship should discuss this issue before anything happens.

(Fortunately our daughter came much later-- after 2 years of marriage.)

0 Replies

I am posting to figure out what I think, so here are some comments in no particular order.

- their relationship has involved casual sex with no intent to bear a child by the woman and presumed nonintent by the man, who I am also presuming knew she was taking birth control pills. I don't say casual sex judgementally, as I am not against it generally.

- the woman does not want to take on the multiple life changing experience of bearing the unexpected embryo as a child

- the woman has in my opinion every right to not do that

- I question that the man has some kind of natural right to know about it. I am aware it sounds harsh to say it is not his right. If I were the man I would want to know, in the way that ebrown described needing to deal with his life's aspects, but stop in regard to saying it is his right.

- I understand the question to be about telling the fellow or not, and not about whether to have an abortion.

- I think micro really doesn't want to hurt the man by having him find out late but probably doesn't want to discuss her decision, have him argue about her decision, in any case, and may have an idea not only not hurting him, but of keeping the friendship.

- I am almost positive this will affect the friendship one way or another; things are already different. Maybe she can put it aside if she doesn't tell him, but the experience will be there.

- I think I think, if you follow that, that aside from the matter of one's rights, it is a matter of friendship to let him know what is going on.... even though telling will definitely affect that friendship. It is possible the friendship will be stronger and possible it will fall apart.

- and finally, I am prochoice, but not an abortion fan. If there is any chance micro isn't really sure about going ahead with it, I support not doing it.

0 Replies

Very good posts ebrown and osso!

0 Replies

Good morning all. Thanks for so many passionate ideas. Here are some things I'd like to add:

1. This guy is a friend. If I wanted a relationship I would not be his friend. By no means do I want him to drop to his knees and proclaim his love. He's a friend, nothing more.

2. We never discussed abortion or child bearing because we don't have sex often enough that we thought it was an issue. But before you think about going into a tangent on that, yes I realize that might be something we should have done. Honestly, though, have you done that with every person you've ever had sex with? It's un-changable and nearly irrelevant now to dwell on that point.

3. We are friends, and we have many of the same friends. I have only told a few of my close friends and while I trust them, years down the line who knows. If soap operas have taught us anything it's that secrets never stay secrets for long.

4. SOOO many of you are mad that I would possibly tell him without the possibility to change my decision. If it makes you feel better, here: If I do tell him, and he is passionate about saving the child and makes the best argument on earth, I MIGHT consider it. Seeing as he is a long term bachelor who puts himself first, I highly doubt he will be so impassioned.

Thanks all, you really are making me think about both ends. I appreciate your ideas -x

mbgal aka Charie

0 Replies

microbiologistgal wrote:

4. SOOO many of you are mad that I would possibly tell him without the possibility to change my decision. If it makes you feel better, here: If I do tell him, and he is passionate about saving the child and makes the best argument on earth, I MIGHT consider it. Seeing as he is a long term bachelor who puts himself first, I highly doubt he will be so impassioned.

Thanks all, you really are making me think about both ends. I appreciate your ideas -x

mbgal aka Charie

Thank you for allowing us to hammer this out - get passionate - and then reading both sides. I appologize if anything I said offended... it is hard for me to see the topic rationally and it took me 5 pages of this thread to even spell out what the question was.

I think the topic of abortion is like saying bomb in an Airport. It might be a casual reference, it might even be just so you can think it out - but you will get some passioned replies.

I personally hope he says that he wants to keep this baby - but that is me.

TTF

0 Replies

sozobe wrote:

TTF, what I was getting at is that discussing an issue when I am genuinely not at all sure of what to do helps uncover what I really think. "What I really think" can be buried under lots of confusing layers -- if it was evident at the outset, there would be no dilemma. But usually (not always) what happens is not that I start out thinking one thing and then my mind is changed by advice -- what usually happens is that the confusing layers are gradually removed in the course of asking for advice.

It can go either way. When someone advises me to do one thing, I might have a strong reaction against it -- that means something. Or someone may advise me to do another thing and I say "that's IT!" -- that means something, as well.

Either way, I think asking for advice and discussing the issue is a great way for someone who HAS NOT MADE UP THEIR MIND -- caps because that seems to keep getting overlooked -- to decide what to do.

It is so tough to have the discussion on the boards. If you and I were discussing this of a latte' it would be a matter of me asking you to clarify your thoughts because I did not understand them.

Thanks for the patience in explaining.

TTF

0 Replies

ossobuco wrote:

- their relationship has involved casual sex with no intent to bear a child by the woman and presumed nonintent by the man, who I am also presuming knew she was taking birth control pills. I don't say casual sex judgementally, as I am not against it generally.

I do not see how this fact is at all pertainant to the fact that you are pregnant. Birth Control is not 100% effective, yet when you have sex you have to know that becoming pregant is a risk (however remote). The fact that was not in your plan simply does not play into your decision. Accidents, and this is one, are never in your plan. However, after an accident has happened you have to deal with it.

As micro said on another topic "It's un-changable and nearly irrelevant now to dwell on that point." I think this applies to the fact that you did not plan this.

TTF

0 Replies

micro,

Before I even read your latest post - I was already having a change of heart about your telling him. It was right after I read Soz's post. She said alot of things that made sense. I went out for a walk and thought about it. And she is right. If there is even an ounce of possibility that he will find out in the future that you had an abortion without telling him...then I have to agree with the posters that said you should tell him. Since you have already told some of your closest friends, the possibility becomes even greater that he might find out.

Abortion issues are parts of the forum that I really should stay away from. My own empty arms and strong desire for a child , muddle my thinking. I appologize, sincerely for that.

After reading your latest post, I agree even MORE that he needs to know. Especially since what he has to say on the issue, is of importance to you. Give him the chance to allow his feelings to be heard. It truely is the right thing to do. I have the utmost of respect for you. None of this will be easy, for sure. You can't turn back the hands of time. But if you do what is right you won't have to wish you could.

0 Replies

I just wanted to add that I never planned on having children when I became pregnant. I was torn in what to do, but I knew I couldn't have an abortion, so my personal choices were between putting my child up for adortion or raising him myself. I decided to raise my son and I could never have imagined my life without him. He'll be 18 in July and I never had any regrets.
Even if I had chosen to put my son up for adoption, I know I would have been very happy knowing he went to a loving home where he would have had a future.

Just something to think about.

0 Replies

thethinkfactory wrote:

However, after an accident has happened you have to deal with it.

Choosing to have an abortion is a legitimate way of dealing with the accident of pregnancy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The questions that come up when thinking about telling a man who might be against abortion - but not planning to parent himself are many.

Huge ball of string, with ends that seem to unravel everywhere.

Telling people who are in the same circle is a messy complication.

It is micro's choice - whether or not to proceed with the pregnancy, whether or not to tell her sexual partner. Lots of ramifications of both of those choices, and they all fall on her head.

Micro and her partner had sex with the hope/expectation that she would not become pregnant - or birth control would not have been practiced. If she feels she does not want to parent, abortion is clearly the choice that is the simplest on a health (for her) basis. Pregnancy and childbirth have many risks.

Adoption is often a very difficult emotional choice to make. It is not a good choice for many women as a result of the later emotional fallout.

Encouraging Micro to have a child so that someone else would be able to adopt seems wrong to me, not simply because there is a world of unwanted children, already born, needing families.

~~~~~~~~~

does anyone else remember the bumper sticker of the 1970's ...

Every child a wanted child. Every parent a willing parent.

It made sense to me then, and still does.

0 Replies

thethinkfactory wrote:

ossobuco wrote:

- their relationship has involved casual sex with no intent to bear a child by the woman and presumed nonintent by the man, who I am also presuming knew she was taking birth control pills. I don't say casual sex judgementally, as I am not against it generally.

I do not see how this fact is at all pertainant to the fact that you are pregnant. Birth Control is not 100% effective, yet when you have sex you have to know that becoming pregant is a risk (however remote). The fact that was not in your plan simply does not play into your decision. Accidents, and this is one, are never in your plan. However, after an accident has happened you have to deal with it.

As micro said on another topic "It's un-changable and nearly irrelevant now to dwell on that point." I think this applies to the fact that you did not plan this.

TTF

I was making observations of what I read, to myself, ttf, not points for delivery as argument. If my quoted observation would lead to any conclusion at all - and I didn't mean it to, I was just reviewing out loud, as it were - it might be that he, by default of both having casual sex and knowing his partner in sex was using birth control, was not actively hoping for a child.

Of course a woman can become pregnant even when having protected sex.
I did not say she did not have to deal with it.

0 Replies

ehBeth wrote:

Encouraging Micro to have a child so that someone else would be able to adopt seems wrong to me, not simply because there is a world of unwanted children, already born, needing families.

I think Montana is just saying to weigh all possibilites, and adoption is certainly one option for unwanted children.

It is a shame though, that older children are waiting to be adopted. Seems like the mainstream is centered around the adoption of infants. Of which there is a shortage of. Older children can make wonderful adoptee's, also.

0 Replies

it is also important to look at the odds/results; while some casual pregnancies result in a wanted child well cared for by one or both parents,
MOST don't.
the decision of whether to have the child rests with both parents, with the woman having a veto over the choice, as her body must run the pregnancy.

If either parent rationally decides they can, and wish to raise the child, and the woman under those circumstances agrees to bear it, the child is viable.

Any other set of circumstances trashes the rights of one or the other, and/or the future person represented in the 'potential' child.

[a microscopic dead fetus is vastly preferable to a wretched human tragedy]

0 Replies

ehBeth wrote:

Choosing to have an abortion is a legitimate way of dealing with the accident of pregnancy.

Encouraging Micro to have a child so that someone else would be able to adopt seems wrong to me, not simply because there is a world of unwanted children, already born, needing families.

I think you are making a false comparison here. Simply because the world (most of which is not as industrialized as us) has unwanted children and cannot afford them does not mean that it is an ethically viable option for those in inductrialized 'first world' nations.

Meaning, if a couple got pregnant and could not afford the child, nor could afford to bring it to birth and give it up for adoption then an argument for abortion could be made. However, in America (I am assuming Micro is from the U.S.) this is not the case. Most states pay for the pregnancy and birth if the intent is to adopt.

I view this sort of abortion as a preventable harm. Any preventable harm that is not prevented is unethical.

Thus, the false comparison to the rest of the world and to the case at hand.

Again, please see this as an argument of abstraction to a level higher than what we are discussion here. This in no way is to sway Micro or no - it is responding to EhBeth's post in a respectful manner to address her comment.

TTF

0 Replies

When should you keep your mouth shut?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know