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"The value of nihilistic thinking."

 
 
Jasper10
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 06:07 am
@Leadfoot,
Thanks for that Leadfoot.My view is that it doesn’t matter what the 2 computers say at the end of the day because they contradict not only themselves but also each other.Equal but opposite thoughts are just data to a computer.We need rules clearly,Watch out what you think therefore is my view.
Leadfoot
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 09:10 am
@Jasper10,
Absolutely. But I do like knowing the rules without having to look them up and not feeling like I’m following them at gun point.

But in all honesty, I don’t want to worry about what I think. I don’t have to accept every thought, but I’m not ever going to be afraid of them.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:13 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

Desperation again...I’m not going on about the bones that compose I’m after evidence for the bones that don’t.Are you saying there is no evidence for that? Be clear..As for the foxes tale well I do accept variations in dog kinds and horse kinds.I get that as a possibility i.e a horsey looking thing can change into another horsey looking thing over time and the same for the dog kind and other animal kinds but that is not proof of evolution at all that’s just desperation again.As for the moth well...there will be a non evolutionary theory that will come out of the wash I’m sure purely based on the complete lack of evidence everywhere else.BONE evidence is what is needed.If this theory was put forward today it would fail at the first hurdle.

While I appreciate your skepticism in the absence of positive evidence, I can tell you I'm not 'desperate' so much as I have just myself come to understand the relationship between different kinds of direct evidence through the years.

Einstein, for example, noted that the far-side of the moon can be assumed to exist even though we can't see it directly (at least not during his time). So the lesson in that is that there are ways to extrapolate from things we can see directly that there are other things we can't. This doesn't mean there aren't magician-types who want to trick you into believing in things that are wrong by reference to things you can observe and little tricks of logic that make you draw false conclusions using bad reasoning; but there is also good logic and good reasoning that don't result in false conclusions.

I think part of what explains the lack of the kind of fossil evidence you want is the fact that when large extinction events happen, there is a lot of change going on at a rapid pace.

For mutations to cause changes, there has to be a lot of time and multiplying of mutants over many generations. That means one species grows more an more diverse until it splits into two or more different species. To see evidence that the two different species were the same, you would have to find fossils of exactly those individuals that lived during the time before the two species separated; but what probably happens is that there is dying off of those individuals in each new species that resemble the old species, i.e. because both daughter species have evolved to survive in ways the mother species couldn't, so those that resemble the mother species are going to die off while those that conform to the daughter species are going to survive and mix with the rest of the population and thus homogenize.

So what you're looking for is something like a perfect hybrid between the parent and offspring species, but once the offspring species separate from each other, they are going to shun the individuals that are more like the parent species, and so species differentiation probably occurs faster then compared with long periods where a single species is just prospering and thus differentiating into multiple nascent mutants, some of which will ultimately survive to become the prototype of a new species and many of which won't.

I'm sure you will just call me desperate again, but do you understand that the DNA is so complex and mutates so gradually, yet geological records encompass such vast time spans? How much do you think the elevation grows each year/decade/century? It is only a few inches, so what has to happen for a fossil to form and not get destroyed over the course of not just centuries but millennia?

There's a lot of living and dying going on every money/year/decade, so it's only a minuscule fraction of all that life that is decomposing in a way that leaves discernible fossil evidence. In one sense, everything that exists is dead material left over from previous life forms, but on the other the organisms that decompose and recycle it all are so thorough that the vast majority of it is rendered totally unidentifiable.

If you really think that species are somehow not all branches off the same tree of life, how do you think they all get designed separately?
livinglava
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:19 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Hey Leadfoot,whilst you’re looking into your bible can you have a look to see if there are any rules mentioned.I have a problem now that the 2 off biological computers have cancelled themselves out and are computing that nothing matters, there is no such thing as morality etc etc...I need rules...

OK, as long as theology is allowed I can answer.

My perception of what the Bible says is that we should not look to external rules written on paper or stone. That is what the people following Moses wanted. They were tired of the stress of not knowing what to do so they asked for a clear definition of exactly what that is. That is not the way God wanted to interact with Man but he respected their request and gave them the best written version of what he wanted.

But that is not what he ultimately wanted. He said he wanted the 'rules' to be written in our hearts (whatever you conceive 'hearts' to mean). He wanted us to see things from a higher perspective and be able to see, understand the value in, and want to do those things that increase the joy of all involved.
If you want and seek that, he said you will find it. He didn’t say it would be easy.

That's right, the new testament says a lot about the relationship between people and the law in light of Holy Spirit.

Sin is inevitable, which is why it requires forgiveness instead of condemnation. There is a way to gain gradual deliverance from sin without ever being able to escape it completely, i.e. because that would mean this world could be perfected, which it can't.

It is very hard for the human mind to process that it's impossible to achieve perfection, yet it is possible and good to keep working in the right direction. We need forgiveness to avoid the trap of hating ourselves and others progressively more due to the fact that we keep growing stronger in our clarity of vision, and thus become more and more aware of sin and how it keeps escaping control and re-manifesting in various ways.
Jasper10
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 12:24 pm
@livinglava,
Thanks for spending the time in explaining your views/ideas.The issue for me with your write up is that it is still full of assumptions and guess work which is ok for some but not for me I’m afraid.Assumptions and guess work are not scientific and definitely not facts.Another assumption for the total lack of any real bone evidence is that it never existed in the first place.You still haven’t explained why dinosaur bones have survived which are supposedly millions of years old! What a laugh that is when they have recently found hemoglobin/skin tissue in dinosaur bones.Sorry it just does not wash with me.Evolution is a nice fantasy story for the kids in my opinion,but that’s all it is.Bone evidence is needed...not guesswork.I wouldn’t bother looking for it though.
livinglava
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 12:53 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

Thanks for spending the time in explaining your views/ideas.

Thanks for having the intellectual honesty and rigor to not shy away from questioning whatever strikes you as questionable, whether it's something I say or from any other source.
Quote:
The issue for me with your write up is that it is still full of assumptions and guess work which is ok for some but not for me I’m afraid.

Idk how to defend that except at the level of specific claims. Obviously anyone can reject anything by calling it 'assumptions and guesswork' at a general level, and you wouldn't know if they are right are wrong unless the 'assumptions and guesswork' were adequately analyzed and evaluated as such.

Quote:
Assumptions and guess work are not scientific and definitely not facts.

As I mentioned, Einstein famously pointed out that he believes in the far-side of the moon despite never having seen it. There are many facts that we believe because we understand them. You've never been to Madagascar, for example (probably), but you accept it is a fact that it's there.

Quote:
Another assumption for the total lack of any real bone evidence is that it never existed in the first place.

True. I haven't discounted that possibility.

Quote:
You still haven’t explained why dinosaur bones have survived which are supposedly millions of years old! What a laugh that is when they have recently found hemoglobin/skin tissue in dinosaur bones.Sorry it just does not wash with me.Evolution is a nice fantasy story for the kids in my opinion,but that’s all it is.Bone evidence is needed...not guesswork.I wouldn’t bother looking for it though.

I could speculate different scenarios for how bones can get buried, petrified, or otherwise fossilized; but it would all be speculation.

Evolution is just a logical process whereby variation among organisms can persist and progress through multiple generations. You look different from your parents and/or siblings, just as they looked different from theirs, and your offspring will look different from you, and theirs from them, and so on and so forth.

So it is just logical that through long periods of time, the diversity keeps growing and also consolidating by homogenizing throughout the population, only sometimes barriers emerge where traits can't homogenize back through the entire population because of geographical or other barriers.

So if you think about the moths that got dark because of the sooty walls and later got light again because industry got cleaner, you can imagine that some dark moths were going into forests where there wasn't as much soot, and they were getting eaten and not reproducing, so the lighter-colored moths in the forests might have been faring better and if the two populations had continued to reproduce separately for long enough, they are eventually not going to be genetically capable of mating at all, and then you have two totally different species.

Again, my question to you is how you think these species were designed if not by the process of evolution. I think of evolution as God's tool for designing species, but I am interested in other perspectives, i.e. to see if they might make sense.
Setanta
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 01:15 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:
Assumptions and guess work are not scientific and definitely not facts.


Oh . . . you mean like your magic sky daddy? Such as your claim that "design" is clearly involved in the rise of life?
0 Replies
 
Jasper10
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 01:36 pm
@livinglava,
Firstly, from what I have discovered about the mental make up I am now persuaded that I am more than this biological machine and my 2 off quantum computers that are unbelievably designed to balance themselves out in every reasoning.With that in mind my views on what is/isn’t truth have changed radically.My views are that we need to seriously question timescales i.e. millions/billions of years to such a point whereby evolution wouldn’t be possible anyway.This blood and skin tissue in dinosaur bones is factual evidence and not guesswork which seriously challenges the timescales put forward by blind scientists.Also,what power instills life into inanimate objects.
Setanta
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 01:41 pm
@Jasper10,
Jesus . . . you just don't know **** about brain physiology, nor about the distinctions between the left and right frontal and prefrontal lobes. Quantum computers? Did you come up with that **** 'cause you think it sounds cool? I've been ignoring this idiocy, but it needs to be pointed out. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 01:59 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

Firstly, from what I have discovered about the mental make up I am now persuaded that I am more than this biological machine and my 2 off quantum computers that are unbelievably designed to balance themselves out in every reasoning.With that in mind my views on what is/isn’t truth have changed radically.My views are that we need to seriously question timescales i.e. millions/billions of years to such a point whereby evolution wouldn’t be possible anyway.Also,what power instills actual life into inanimate objects.Also,this blood and skin tissue in dinosaur bones is factual evidence and not guesswork which seriously challenges the timescales put forward by blind scientists.

You might want to post other threads to discuss some of what sound like many revelations you've had, and the reasons you believe/think as you do.

I will just speak to one thing you mention, which is time scale (though it also relates to the brain = quantum computer thing). There is a video/study somewhere online that shows small birds, finches I think it was, perform mating dances that only become decipherable in terms of the pattern/rhythm of jumps and steps when you slow the video down. It is not dissimilar from the quick patterns of chirps and whistles that you can hear are patterned in bird calls but we can't hear them as clearly as they presumably can.

The brain consists of networks of neuron-cells that work by opening little gates in the cell that allow a concentration of sodium or potassium ions to flow across the gate and thus trigger an electrical signal called a 'action potential.' These signals move at a certain speed, about 50mph I think I've read.

With our bigger, more complex brains (compared with birds), signals take longer to move around our brains and so our speed of perception is probably slower than birds' for this reason. This is why I think the birds' dances and chirps move at a quicker pace and take less time than things we do.

Now what I'm trying to explain with that example is that if humans and birds can experience time passing at different speeds due to the size and configuration of their brains and thought/action patterns, then the broader universe consists of many diverse patterns of energy-interactions that occur at different speeds and so what appears to one organism as a very long time can be experienced by another very quickly.

So now you look at organisms like trees that can live hundreds of years, or the Earth as a whole, which goes through geological energy patterns that we can recognize as plate tectonics over huge periods of time, but at our time scale they amount to no more than coastline-changes at the rate at which a fingernail grows; all these different time-scales can be perceived/experienced differently at different scales of consciousness.

So while we experience consciousness in a way that makes a bird's song seem quick, birds might hear each others' songs as lasting what to us would seem like several minutes (like our own human songs). I'm not suggesting that birds and humans are equal in some way; just that their time-scales are different in a way that prevents us from really grasping how they experience the things they experience.

So, I don't know if that means anything to you in terms of thinking about how different species experience time differently and how there can be consciousness at scales far beyond what we think is possible by comparing everything with our wet, salty, little brains. But imo, you can't expect that everything in the universe happens at a human time-scale, because there is just more diversity than that and while we can certainly look at our own workings and extrapolate that God created us in His image, we can also look at the rest of creation and find evidence of God throughout; after all everything was/is created from the same original source (I'm assuming you believe that; but if not feel free to explain why not).

Jasper10
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 03:10 pm
@livinglava,
Thanks once again for sharing this with me.It was really interesting.You mention consciousness which is something that is directly related to why my views are that the brain/mind and their interactions behave exactly like what I can only explain in terms of the quantum computer effect.I have tried to explain this simply in order to explain my understandings of nihilism which is the subject of this posting.My views are that we are separate but embroiled with these biological machines and can come into an awareness of what I have written above.My view is that one has to CONSCIOUSLY balance these machines in our meditations.
knaivete
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 09:31 pm
@Jasper10,
Quote:
You still haven’t explained why dinosaur bones have survived which are supposedly millions of years old!


Given that you don't believe in evolution, how old would you say these bones are?
Jasper10
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 11:49 pm
@knaivete,
Not very old at all in my opinion maybe thousands.Red blood cells in dinosaur bones ...skin tissue...These animals were around in our recent history.
Jasper10
 
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Reply Sat 23 May, 2020 02:36 am
@Jasper10,
Although this is probably not related to this post can I say that I can prove the quantum type effect on the mind/brain by introducing consciousness.Again utilising the 2 computer brain analogy to explain it.My view is that you are either in the moment or not in the moment.Lets give the not in the moment consciousness state a “zero” and the in the moment state a “one”.Most people’s computers function in zero/zero mode.If you consciously bring yourself into the moment then one of the computers will flip to a “one”,the other computer will remain in “zero” mode.We struggle to stay in the moment initially and therefore the computer that went to a “one” flips back to a “zero” again.We slowly begin to recognise this mind movement.The aim is to get both computers to register one/one.
Leadfoot
 
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Reply Sat 23 May, 2020 05:32 am
@Jasper10,
Can’t remember the authors name but the book 'The Power of Now' has a similar idea. He didn’t use the computer analogies but his 'Now' sounds very similar to your 'In the Moment'.

There's a lot to say for that idea. I don’t know how far the path of awareness goes but it has to start there.
Leadfoot
 
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Reply Sat 23 May, 2020 05:50 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
Sin is inevitable, which is why it requires forgiveness instead of condemnation.

‘Forgiveness' is exactly what we need, as opposed to 'forgiven'.
But what do you mean by the word? You must know the cliche that will pop into almost everyone’s head when you use it without the reasoning behind it.

To be forgiven only benefits the one doing the forgiving.
Forgiveness involves both parties understanding what, how and why the trespass took place.
One is relatively easy. The other takes a lifetime at best.
Jasper10
 
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Reply Sat 23 May, 2020 06:25 am
@Leadfoot,
Hi,yes I have heard of this book and I keep meaning to get a hold of a copy.One has to start recognising how little one stays in the moment and correct this.I use the computer analogies to explain the mirror imaging effect of the mind i.e the right and the left,if you are familiar with inward meditation.Out of interest,I’m keeping my eye on the latest scientific theories relating to space consisting of bubbles, (if you go small enough).This may sound crazy but my view is this ties in very nicely with the fact that the physical body is split into three parts which I have suspected for a long time now.i.e.matter/space/behind space (veil) so to speak.Is there anything in your bible along these lines? The secrets are within us...apparently.
knaivete
 
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Reply Sat 23 May, 2020 07:58 am
@Jasper10,
Quote:
Not very old at all in my opinion maybe thousands.Red blood cells in dinosaur bones ...skin tissue...These animals were around in our recent history.


To think otherwise would completely conflict with the creation.

Do you have any thoughts on the flood?

Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 May, 2020 08:17 am
@knaivete,
For me there is no end of examples of evidence of a catastrophic flood with real science backing it up.The vertical fossilised trees in rock layers does it for me.This suggests a rapid burial of trees very quickly as a result of a deluge.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 May, 2020 10:37 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

Thanks once again for sharing this with me.It was really interesting.You mention consciousness which is something that is directly related to why my views are that the brain/mind and their interactions behave exactly like what I can only explain in terms of the quantum computer effect.I have tried to explain this simply in order to explain my understandings of nihilism which is the subject of this posting.My views are that we are separate but embroiled with these biological machines and can come into an awareness of what I have written above.My view is that one has to CONSCIOUSLY balance these machines in our meditations.

Alright, while I appreciate these issues you're talking about here, we seem to have left the topic of evolution, so I'm not sure there's anything left for me to respond to in what you're touching on here, but if you have something specific that you are looking for feedback on or discussion of, feel free to specify and explain and I will consider responding again.
0 Replies
 
 

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