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"The value of nihilistic thinking."

 
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 May, 2020 10:48 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Sin is inevitable, which is why it requires forgiveness instead of condemnation.

‘Forgiveness' is exactly what we need, as opposed to 'forgiven'.

I don't know what you mean by this.
Quote:
But what do you mean by the word? You must know the cliche that will pop into almost everyone’s head when you use it without the reasoning behind it.

It sounds cliche because it's a mantra. When you study the mantra deeply and critically enough, you will understand it.

I'll try to explain once more, however, by saying that sin is like crime that we get punished for without exception. It's not like crime where there's a statute of limitations or you can otherwise escape justice.

Sin causes harm, so what we sow we reap. You think, maybe, that if you kill someone before they kill you that you can escape them killing you back, but somehow what goes around comes around and people can't escape the effects of their own actions.

That's just part of why we need ultimate forgiveness, but it also has to do with the vicious cycle of falling deeper into sin as a result of feeling inescapably damned to sin/hell. It also has to do with the fact that sometimes when we seek forgiveness from people we have sinned against, they are not loving/selfless enough to forgive unconditionally, so they will try to enslave you as a condition of forgiving you, and that's why Martin Luther risked his life to point out that salvation is by faith alone and not by works/deeds that you do in order to 'buy indulgence.'

Quote:
To be forgiven only benefits the one doing the forgiving.
Forgiveness involves both parties understanding what, how and why the trespass took place.
One is relatively easy. The other takes a lifetime at best.

Forgiveness is a spiritual state within yourself that you have to believe in to be saved from sin. If you can't believe that God can forgive everything in order to put us on the right track, there is the story of Christ paying for everyone's sins so that you can stop worrying about what you have to do to be forgiven and instead can get the real business of how to live to honor the fact you've already been forgiven and saved.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 May, 2020 11:31 am
@livinglava,
I am truly sorry I said anything about it to you.
Please forgive me.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 May, 2020 11:39 am
@Jasper10,
Quote:
my view is this ties in very nicely with the fact that the physical body is split into three parts which I have suspected for a long time now.i.e.matter/space/behind space (veil) so to speak.Is there anything in your bible along these lines?

Well, the entire book is based on the premise that there is more to us than physical body and space, so yeah, it says a lot about that.
After that premise, the book is mostly hints that may help answer - 'What now?'
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 May, 2020 12:17 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

I am truly sorry I said anything about it to you.
Please forgive me.

A backhanded apology that plays with the concept of forgiveness as part of negative regard for a person?

Fortunately, God forgives all. Stay blessed, brother.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 May, 2020 01:28 pm
@livinglava,
When I want to insult you I do it directly.

I meant what I said. Both times.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 01:36 am
@Leadfoot,
Now that my biological computers have cancelled themselves out I need rules,I’ve been reading up to see if I can find any Christian rules in the bible and I’ve come across the Law or Ten Commandments? Apparently,I need to keep these rules perfectly or else I have sinned and if I don’t keep them perfectly then basically I‘ve had it,because God can’t look on any sin.What’s the point of giving me rules I can’t keep? Sorry I’ve got me quantum computer head on again.Is there a Counter Law as well?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 06:09 am
@Jasper10,
Yes, far as I know, you understand it correctly. If you choose to live by a ridged yet simple set of ten rules, you must keep your end of the bargain. That is the bargain the Israelites following Moses made with God. It was their idea, not Gods.

Not sure if you’d call it a 'counter law' or what, but when God saw that they were not able to follow the ones they asked for, he sent his son in human form to explain the shortcomings of trying to follow such a list and what the intent behind the rules actually meant.
He summarized it by saying “Love God with all your heart mind and soul and love others as I have loved you. In this you have fulfilled all the law and all the prophets.” Some gospels phrase it slightly different, 'love others as you love yourself', etc.

That’s from memory, but I’m sure that's the meaning. I forget the chapter and verse but it’s easy to find if interested.

Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 07:15 am
@Leadfoot,
That’s interesting, thankyou.It’s just for my quantum theory idea to work mathematically, I need a 1 to become 0 i.e. if 1 is good and 0 is bad.I need the 1 to become 0 as well for the formula to become perfect.I presume Jesus was perfect then If he was God’s son ? Sorry that’s just how my brain works.Please bear with me.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 08:48 am
@Jasper10,
I did not have the pleasure of meeting him in the flesh but I never saw him put a foot wrong in anything he said. His answers were always brilliant and deeply insightful in my opinion. Which is more than I can say for anybody else I’ve read, including myself.

Could you be more specific about the 1 you need to toggle to 0? An example maybe.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 09:43 am
@Leadfoot,
In answer to your question is there any way he could have been become bad even though he was good? If that makes any sense? That’s probably the best example I can give.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 11:32 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

That’s interesting, thankyou.It’s just for my quantum theory idea to work mathematically, I need a 1 to become 0 i.e. if 1 is good and 0 is bad.I need the 1 to become 0 as well for the formula to become perfect.I presume Jesus was perfect then If he was God’s son ? Sorry that’s just how my brain works.Please bear with me.

No one can become perfect. That is why we need forgiveness. The commandments contain right ideals, but in this perverted world, even good intentions can turn into bad outcomes. We don't control the outcomes of our actions, even though we can do the best we can to control what aspects we can and implore others to also take responsibility for their actions.

If you want to get closer to understand reality, you can't think in terms of absolute zeros and ones. The reality is that the better you become, the more problems you will see in the world and in yourself. It is just the nature of clarity that the quieter it gets, the more tinier sounds you hear, or the cleaner things are, the more you notice smaller amounts of dirt.

You just have to accept that we are forgiven for the persistence of sin in all its forms, so long as we maintain the right orientation and attitude toward morality, ethics, responsibility, etc. In short, we have to keep doing what's right, and when we falter, we have to admit it and feel sorry for it within ourselves (in prayer) so that we can not get hung up in negative thoughts and emotions and keep moving forward with salvation and redemption.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 11:59 am
@livinglava,
I don’t think in terms of 0/1’s on a day to day believe me, as I fail all the time like everyone else.Maybe I should more if there are rules even if I struggle to abide by them.However,for me any way that doesn’t detract from the point that if there are rules and there is right/wrong then 0/1’s apply
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 12:20 pm
@Jasper10,
Quote:
In answer to your question is there any way he could have been become bad even though he was good? If that makes any sense? That’s probably the best example I can give.

There are perspectives from which he could appear bad.

What would you think if he said to you - 'He who does not hate mother, father, wife and children, is not worthy to follow him.' .
It certainly sounds like something an arrogant monster would say, but he said that. And it applied to everyone.

In my personal experience he was so harsh and uncompromising in his dealing with me that I came to hate him more than anything or anyone in the world At one point. If it had been in my power I would have killed him. The reason I don’t hate him now is that I knew I had volunteered for anything it took to know what the reality behind this world really was, and he was patient enough to see me through to understanding how these apparent contradictions could be explained.

So I guess that’s an unqualified 'yes'.

0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 01:37 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

I don’t think in terms of 0/1’s on a day to day believe me, as I fail all the time like everyone else.Maybe I should more if there are rules even if I struggle to abide by them.However,for me any way that doesn’t detract from the point that if there are rules and there is right/wrong then 0/1’s apply

Trying to think in 0/1 terms will take you further from truth in many if not most cases. Language is representation and categories/terms are never perfect and overlap in various ways. It's more accurate to figure out what terms and categories mean and then identify how they fall short of accurately representing reality than to try to apply them in a 0/1 way and be more wrong than if you had understood how they work, don't work, fit,and don't fit.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 02:01 pm
@livinglava,
I think we need to agree to disagree on that one.Either there is right/wrong or there isn’t.If there is then it will be perfectly defined in my opinion even if we struggle to comply with it fully.I am comfortable with this and feel no burden whatsoever in accepting it.My view is that in no way does it take me away from truth rather the opposite because the lines are defined and not blurred.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 05:35 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

I think we need to agree to disagree on that one.Either there is right/wrong or there isn’t.If there is then it will be perfectly defined in my opinion even if we struggle to comply with it fully.I am comfortable with this and feel no burden whatsoever in accepting it.My view is that in no way does it take me away from truth rather the opposite because the lines are defined and not blurred.

If you disagree with me, how could I disagree and say that you don't?

As for right and wrong, yes I agree that there is moral truth; but I don't think you're considering the various levels of meaning and interpretation that words and concepts take on in practice in various contexts.

It may only become clear through specific examples, but you can read lots of debates about religion in these discussions where issues of right and wrong are twisted in perverse ways that work logically because of the fundamental nature of language.

Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 12:33 am
@livinglava,
If you want to get mathematical,if quantum computer A says 1+1 = 2 and computer B disagrees then computer A CAN then disagree with computer B.The only possible outputs of both computers combined is 0,0 or 0,1 or 1,0 or 1,1 where 1 is agree and 0 is disagree .If you, as computer A says 1+1 = 2 and I as computer B disagrees, you can disagree with me.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 09:30 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

If you want to get mathematical,if quantum computer A says 1+1 = 2 and computer B disagrees then computer A CAN then disagree with computer B.The only possible outputs of both computers combined is 0,0 or 0,1 or 1,0 or 1,1 where 1 is agree and 0 is disagree .If you, as computer A says 1+1 = 2 and I as computer B disagrees, you can disagree with me.

I can't explain how this logic fails to translate until you give an example of how it is supposed to translate into some meaningful aspect of reality beyond the numbers by themselves.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 12:56 pm
@livinglava,
My view is that the 2 off computers in my head are just components of my overall body.My view is they are phenomenal computers.....quantum at the very least, that communicate with each other.My view is that my physical body including these computers is not the whole of who I am and there are two other separate parts of my overall makeup.My view is that I can input a question into these computers and they can either agree (1) or disagree (0) with my question dependent upon the information already provided.My view is I should consider any of the FOUR possible outputs from these computers 0;0 or 0;1 or 1;0 or 1;1.My view is these computers are perfectly balanced and can default to neutral as well.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 01:12 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

My view is that the 2 off computers in my head are just components of my overall body.My view is they are phenomenal computers.....quantum at the very least, that communicate with each other.My view is that my physical body including these computers is not the whole of who I am and there are two other separate parts of my overall makeup.My view is that I can input a question into these computers and they can either agree (1) or disagree (0) with my question dependent upon the information already provided.My view is I should consider any of the FOUR possible outputs from these computers 0;0 or 0;1 or 1;0 or 1;1.My view is these computers are perfectly balanced and can default to neutral as well.

It's getting a little clearer, but I still don't exactly get what each computer does and in what sense they agree and/or disagree?

Can you give any really specific and concrete examples?
 

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