1
   

"The value of nihilistic thinking."

 
 
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 May, 2020 12:59 pm
@Leadfoot,
I do understand your views but my view is that we still need to go through the nihilism middle door,lets things sink in and then go again.Thats is how I came to the conclusion I was dealing with a biological machine.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 May, 2020 01:37 pm
@Jasper10,
And I do understand what you mean about the two competing voices in our 'heads'. I don’t have a good analogy for them myself, so left and right brain could be as accurate as any.

I think they (and their competition) serve an important function. A lot of people shut down one or the other in an attempt to find peace, which is not what I think you are recommending. Personally, I’ve been in a life long struggle to reconcile them and I guess that is what you’re saying as well. Can’t say I’ve completed the job yet but I haven’t found much company in the direction I’m going.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 May, 2020 02:16 pm
@Leadfoot,
What you say is really interesting about the 2 off voices.My view is the 2 computers do have competing voices.Trying to neutralise them is extremely difficult but, for me anyway,is related to Nihilism .My view is that you have to shut them (EGOS) both down and it is impossible to do this by engaging in just thoughts ALONE.Learning about consciousness states is the key in my opinion.I have learnt to bring myself in/out of the present moment with the end goal of being in the moment more than not..I ignore all types of thoughts in this process.I have therefore learnt to separate consciousness from thoughts.They are definitely separate things.One experiences consciousness in SILENCE which is the buffer between oneself and thoughts.i.e the YOU exists within in a consciousness state ....then there is SILENCE....then THOUGHTS.One has to recognise the silence between thoughts more and more and more.It is there to be recognised.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 12:50 pm
@Jasper10,
I get that. I call it my 'alien view', which turned out to be an eerily accurate description.

I envision myself in a space ship viewing the situation as if I had no personal interest, like I was a visitor from another planet seeing whatever it is for the first time. The problem is, from that POV not much makes sense in terms of how people interact. The temptation is to join the insanity for fear of being all alone in that ship. But I haven’t found Nihilism to be an answer, only a method to get there.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 03:18 pm
@Leadfoot,
If you walk through the middle nihilism door then my view is that everything is neutralised with regard to the thought reasonings of the 2 off biological computers (and their voices) only.These biological computers don’t possess consciousness....they’re MACHINES, and dead of themselves.The “I am” consciousness is separate from them.Thoughts can only exist in consciousness.Consciousness does not need thoughts.The You has the ability to not only engage with the computers but also the “I am” consciousness state.The only thing that comes out of Nihilism is the you and ones HOPE that our BELIEF systems are correct.The 2 computers can’t go beyond Nihilism (which ultimately is only linked with the inner workings of the biological machine) for the simple reason these machines are physical and not spiritual.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 05:23 pm
@Jasper10,
Are you saying that consciousness without the two bio-computers would have no thoughts?
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2020 12:16 am
@Leadfoot,
No,my view is, from rusty experience (but gettin better) , there is the ability to listen to STILL pure thoughts rather than ENGAGING thoughts.Having gone through the middle nihilism door one is armed with the pre-realisation that if one is to never think again... then even so ...” i am” My view is that it is important to come to this unique realisation.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2020 03:57 am
@Jasper10,
Then I think we agree on this.
What confused me for a long time was my assumption that most everyone silenced those two noisy neighbors in their head at least once in awhile and listened. I wondered why they often doubted my sanity before considering the possibility that they don’t. Listen I mean. Most of them definitely doubt both my sanity and/or veracity.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2020 05:05 am
@Leadfoot,
Trying to understand ones mind and how it works is the most difficult thing anyone can undertake in my opinion.My view is that one (the you) has to exercise ones will power to silence the 2 off biological voices within ones head.Slowly but surely one learns to recognise these voices and not ENGAGE with them but rather stay still/remain where you are in a mental sense.This is the only way I can describe/explain it.This takes a lot of practice/perseverance.Once one has mastered silencing them (to a point) it is easy to tune into the STILL “I Am”voice.....i.e. ones pure voice.This process involves learning about the consciousness states and how one interacts with them as well as thoughts and silence.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2020 05:13 am
@Jasper10,
I don’t doubt your sanity, my view is that you have tuned into some amazing stuff/insights.The only insane thing is the 2 off biological computers.They don’t make any sense at all,if you leave them to make all the decisions and convince you of stuff.These biological computers couldn’t careless about you.How can they,they’re machines.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2020 01:20 pm
@Jasper10,
I think of them as terminals or interfaces. They are what make you feel connected to your body.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2020 02:06 pm
@Leadfoot,
I also see them in exactly the same way.The thing with computer terminals is that one needs to be sitting in front of them taking control.These computers can and do function automatically as in the autopilot (out of synch with oneself) consciousness state but they operate best if someone is sitting in front of them keying in information in the manual...in the moment consciousness state.Bringing oneself into the moment is easy enough....staying in the moment is not that easy.One drifts back into autopilot.Most people spend their whole lives in autopilot.
0 Replies
 
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 03:45 am
@Leadfoot,
What is really interesting is, where has the nihilistic dual like/double minded thinking that ultimately cancels itself out, come from? Also,the notion of two off competing voices within the head? It cries out ROBOTIC.Are we saying robots have consciousness and we are robots? Even if our HOPE is that this belief system is true, are we saying that consciousness evolved? Just a few ideas that may be right or they may be wrong.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 06:19 am
@Jasper10,
I don’t even get to the level of 'consciousness' before the metaphor of 'Robotic' breaks my chain of thought.

The DNA based paradigm of biological Lifeforms is so shockingly obviously 'designed' that the infinitely harder question of where 'consciousness' came from is rendered moot.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 08:07 am
@Leadfoot,
I have not looked into the DNA issue but I’m sure that if I did I would come to the same conclusions as you i.e. ( designed surely). This is the conclusion that I have now come to based purely upon what I am discovering about the mind and how it works.How else is Nihilistic thinking explained? It has to be a product of a biological robotic machine ,surely? Consciousness sits above OR totally embroils the robotic mindset in some mysterious way.How the real “you” and “i am” (as I call them) interact with this biological machine is truly mind blowing in my opinion.Apologies,if my terminology is not clear.It’s what I have come up with over the years.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 02:15 pm
@Jasper10,
I suspect there are as many paths to the truth as there are people who find it.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2020 01:18 am
@Leadfoot,
Can explain in simple terms what are the main things that have convinced you that we are designed when it comes to our DNA.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2020 08:26 am
@Jasper10,
I’ll give it a try.

The simplest example that illustrates the basic problem of 'accidental life' is to understand what a protein is and how it is made. Search 'life of the cell' on YouTube for visual references to proteins. Without at least some grasp of proteins, a simple explanation is impossible. A protein in biology has little to do with the dietary term 'protein' so don’t think 'the stuff in meat'.

There are thousands of different types of proteins for doing different jobs in a cell. Anything that happens or gets done inside a cell is done either directly or indirectly by a protein. It is the most basic functional unit in a cell.

A protein is a molecular machine. I use the term 'machine' because of its interrelated combination of chemical, electrical and mechanical characteristics and the fact that it is very specific and functional.

A protein is made of amino acids. Amino acids are called the 'building blocks of life' for this reason. Making these 'building blocks' in the lab is as close to creating life as we have come, even though they can also form naturally. This is why one theory of life emerging is called 'protein world' since it seems logical that the 'simpler' protein came before the far more complex cell.

There are hundreds of different amino acids and each one comes in right and left handed versions (mirror images). Proteins only contain 20 of those and all are left handed. This creates a problem for naturally occurring proteins because if you mix in any of the other amino acids, or even a single right handed one of the 20, the protein is broken and will not function. And there is no mechanism in nature to prevent such contamination. But we are not yet to the real reason why biological life had to be designed.

A protein is a very specific chain of ordered amino acids between about 150 and 3500 long, depending on the protein. They do not function in this string form. In order to be functional, they must be 'folded' into a complex physical three dimensional shape, which is another barrier to 'natural' life forming. But we are still not at the crux of the problem.

Let’s say that in spite of the odds, the right order of only the correct amino acids does link up by chance. Let us further say that they accidentally fold into the correct functional configuration. If you are into math, the chances of that happening have been calculated at 1 in 10^77. For perspective, there are about 10^50 atoms in the entire planet of earth. But still, we are not at the bottom of the problem.

Remember that we are only talking about a protein so far. it takes hundreds to thousands of different proteins working in a coordinated fashion to make a single cell function. But for now let's ignore the mathematical improbability of that first protein and the hundreds of others needed.

You have probably noticed that I have not mentioned DNA yet. It is the nature of what DNA is that makes accidental life virtually impossible. Bill Gates compared DNA to a computer operating system, only DNA is far more complicated. It is the most complicated thing we know of and we have only begun to understand just how complex it is.

But it is NOT the complexity itself that explains why it had to be designed. It is the multiple hierarchical levels of symbolic representation in DNA that demands a design. DNA has a LANGUAGE with syntax, words, punctuation, definitions, etc.

Here is the breaking point. It is possible for a human mind to imagine something as complex as a protein forming as a result of naturally occurring chemical processes even if the odds are vanishingly small. Then multiply that by the thousands of protein types needed. Still you could say, well given enough time, multiple universes, etc. it could happen. It sounds desperate to me but You can’t say the odds are zero. I should add that even the 'evolution explains everything' crowd can’t defend this 'Protein World' scenario, so they usually default to something like 'RNA world' as a precursor to first living cell. RNA is basically half of a DNA strand.

But to accept that this happened by random chance you would have to believe the following:

By random linking up of nucleotides (the four molecules that are in DNA), a machine language containing the words, letters, syntax and punctuation necessary for defining all the needed proteins for 'life' came about. Notice that I said 'defining' the proteins, not the proteins themselves or even the amino acids needed to make a protein.

To over simplify, DNA is a ‘recipe', an ordered list of instructions and ingredients on how to build thousands of different proteins. DNA itself cannot do anything with these instructions. In order to be built, the DNA instructions have to be transferred to a Ribosome, which in turn is a very complex protein itself (hopefully you see the chicken and egg problem here).

The Ribosome reads the symbolic list of the recipe and begins gathering the required amino acids called for in the list. It assembles the amino acids into a string in the order specified in the DNA strand sent to it. (in the form of what’s called ‘messenger RNA')

After the amino acids are strung together, Some simpler proteins will spontaneously fold into their final three dimensional shape but most require yet other proteins to actively form them in the correct way. If they are not folded correctly they will not function and are often toxic.

Hopefully you followed that but to summarize, complex combinations of amino acids are possible given enough time and material. The odds are not what I would call possible but you can’t say that a protein by accident is impossible, in spite of its complexity.

What cannot be reasonably believed is that 'nature' took that first accidental protein and then invented a symbolic language (encoded in DNA) that was able to be read and executed by that protein in order to make more proteins.

A protein by accident - maybe.

A symbolic language describing all the needed proteins for life and simultaneously a molecular machine that understands that language and able to build according to the instructions - Nope.

It is the symbolic nature of DNA's language that required 'design'.

That's as simple as I can make it.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2020 12:11 pm
@Leadfoot,
Wow! Thanks for that explanation.I have read it three times and some of it is sinking in.I am going to read up more on it starting with the youtube link you gave.The complexity of our biological machine like bodies and the unbelievably powerful computers that drive them is mind blowing.Technology that man hasn’t even begun to understand let alone copy.As I have mentioned in my posts my interests are how do we i.e. “the you” and the “i am” interact with this phenomenal physical body of ours in relation to consciousness and the mind.Thanks again you have been a great help.
Jasper10
 
  3  
Reply Wed 20 May, 2020 01:05 am
@Jasper10,
Just getting back to the title of the post.Nihilistic thinking ultimately states that right is wrong and wrong is right hence nothing matters;life is meaningless;there is no such thing as morality etc etc....i.e. the view a robot would come to in my opinion.In that case I should be able to go to the house of the ardent believer in Nihilism take his or her car keys and they shouldn’t put up much of a struggle.Obviously they will resist because we all have an in built something when it comes to fairness/right and wrong.You can’t have both reasonings or you remain LOST.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

"Sacrifice for change is effect. - Discussion by jufa
Nonsense is nonsense no matter who states it - Discussion by Alan McDougall
The Hive Mind of Humanity? - Discussion by Alan McDougall
Journey into alternate realities (Excerpt only?) - Discussion by Alan McDougall
A Warning from Gia Mother Earth to mortal mankind - Discussion by Alan McDougall
Augmenting Human Sensory Perceptions? - Discussion by Alan McDougall
The Unstable Divide - Question by binman303
 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 02/26/2021 at 12:03:11