My beliefs as a conservative

Foxfyre, responding to Dookistix wrote:

Are you going to source the stuff you just posted?

I think [s]he is quoting Wikipedia's article on "Liberalism", namely its subsection "Liberalism vs. classical liberalism". I find the section's distinction between libertarians and classical liberals unpersuasive. Adam Smith believed that government restrict itself to national defense, police, courts, law-making, road-and-canal-building, and school-funding. (He didn't believe in government running the schools or the universities.) These functions cost the American governments about 10% of GDP today -- or about 1/3 of total American government spending today, 1/4 of British, Canadian, and Australian government spending today, 1/5 of German government spending today.

In other words, even Smith, who was by no means the most radical small-government type among classical liberals, would be considered solidly libertarian by today's standards. Ironically, he almost fits mysteryman's description of a conservative too. "Almost", because he wouldn't have bothered to mention the "country without borders" part, and he wouldn't have been so quick to dismiss the possibility that he might be wrong. Which also happen to be the major reasons why I don't consider myself a conservative.

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Thomas writes

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and he wouldn't have been so quick to dismiss the possibility that he might be wrong. Which also happen to be the major reasons why I don't consider myself a conservative.

Well, where it is always risky to speak what you think another person is saying or means, as the probability of error is very high, I'm going to stick my neck out here and speculate that MM isn't saying there is no possibility that he might be wrong. He is saying, I think, that he believes he is right. While the distinction there is subtle, there is a distinction. Adam Smith also had strength of his convictions. (He is also one of my historical heroes.) When new, better, more convincing, different information is available, a new conviction is born..

I think modern conservatives have that strength of conviction and a sense of certainty based on criteria they can both articulate and defend - thank you Goodfielder - and I think that strength of conviction is what the neo-libs hate most about them.

I think most modern liberals can engage in reasoned discussion only up to a point before the only ammunition they have left is to demean/ridicule/insult the opposition or point out the sins, past or present, of the opposition. There are a few exceptions out there of course, and I have the greatest admiration and respect for those few.

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Quote:

I can see that I am going to have to explain these beliefs.I thought they were self explanatory

Only in your own head it would seem...

And he is quoting from Wikipedia's article on "Liberalism."

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I think modern conservatives have that strength of conviction and a sense of certainty based on criteria they can both articulate and defend - thank you Goodfielder - and I think that strength of conviction is what the neo-libs hate most about them.

It is a strength of conviction that is necessary if one wants to destroy Democracy as we know it. It takes a strength of conviction to use fear in order to control the masses, to control the message through misquotes and outright lies, to bait and switch, demonize and smear anyone who would get in their way.

It takes a strength of conviction to pursue the fascist idealism creeping up from the bowls of divisiveness and hatred. It is the strength of conviction coming from the religious right which is teaching our children to hate people who may be different.

Yep. Strength of conviction.

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Yep, fundamentalist, dogmatic, absolutist, socially unethical and unfeeling "strength of conviction." Conservatism tries to put a face of respectability on greed and selfishness.

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Compassionate Conservatism in the new Fatherland.

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Foxfyre wrote:

While I am to the point of saying a pox on both their houses...

hahahahahha! too funny! those are the exact words my mother (the life long, true believer republican) used when i asked her what she thought of the election proceedings. and i've heard it from life long dems as well. hey! ya probably have heard me say it too.

to me, that is much more telling about each of the parties than anything their opposition could ever say.

Foxfyre wrote:

I will still vote Republican as long as the GOP has most of what few rational thinkers there are in Washingon

wellll... that's okay, i still love ya anyway. i voted for 'em until i just couldn't do it anymore. sometimes i still do locally.

Foxfyre wrote:

But yes, it seems impossible to have a serious bipartisan discussion about much of anything here on A2K. All attempts will sooner or later be derailed and converted to just another bashing thread. I had hoped very much your thread would make it.

not just on a2k, foxy (though we do get in a few without much flaming and some with a lot of good natured food fights), i think we could say the same on a national level.

but since you and i agree that not all of the enmity is organic, perhaps we can do better at not being led around by the specious pontifications of our more partisan talking heads.

specious pontifications??? man, talk about speaking above your paygrade! Laughing

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DTOM:

You don't mean specious pontificaters who say things like:

"Neolib gang bangers" and "Democrats have the corner on the lunatic fringe," do ya? :wink:

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We all know liberals believe in nothing Dookie. That's why the Democrats will continue to be a party of losers.

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I agree that the Democrats ARE the party of losers. And that's because they refuse to, or just cannot, deal with the strength and conviction of the neocons as they work tirelessly in destroying Democracy in America at every turn.

Joe Biden is a bastard for voting FOR bankruptcy bill. Lieberman should just turn himself into a Republican right now, because he practically is already. Zell Miller, before he left the Senate, was a blatant closet Republican in Democrats clothing.

The Dems are certainly a sorry lot right now. It's no wonder Hillary Clinton is becoming more centrist at every turn as she consolidates her popularity in the great state of New York.

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And McGentrix, Liberals believe in a lot. They believe that self-righteous "pricks" such as yourself who insist on pushing the public discourse to new levels of absurdity are doing nothing in helping the Democratic cause.

The rightwing media has made sure of that. Instead, we get to hear all the bulls*t regarding steroid use and Michael Jackson, wherein Faux News has a counter to countdown the second until MJ showed up in his pajamas.

The rightwing media machine is all about spectacle and lies. It sells, and it becomes the conduit in which they can cater their message to idiots in this country who cannot think for themselves.

Liberals believe in REAL debate and intellectual discourse that spurs a REAL conversation regarding the issues we hold dear to all of us.

They believe in equality and tolerance for all mankind, rather than Christian nutjobs who call for the deaths of homosexuals because the Bible tells them so.

They believe that Government serves a purpose in helping the weak and the old, which is why Bush's attempts to destroy SS have thus far failed miserably.

And right now, they believe that they MUST answer the rightwing noise that so permeats the airwaves today. Which is why Air America Radio was born and now has 50 affiliates in which to counter all that noise.

Clumping all liberals together with Democrats never served any purpose in the debate. Neither does clumping all conservatives with the neocons or clumping all neocons with Republicans help as well.

But it's certainly easier to do as they are in charge of all branches of government.

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Dookiestix wrote:

Liberals believe in REAL debate and intellectual discourse that spurs a REAL conversation regarding the issues we hold dear to all of us.

I apologize for calling you a liberal if this is what they believe. You obviously are not a liberal....by your definition anyways.

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But I am, by my definition, a liberal, and it is what I believe in.

But I'll accept your apology anyways...

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I call myself a progressive-liberal. I am, like Dooklestix, very unhappy with the Democratic party. Like Biden, most Democrats, and all Republicans I can think of, are mere professional politicians, careerists who worry FAR more about their re-election than about the condition of the country. I am hoping that with Dean as head of the DMC things will swing about a bit. My greatest hope, one that I think is realistic, is that Bush's extremism will produce a political reawakening of the working people of America. An awakening that will set the Republicans back for decades to come.

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I'm with you, jl.

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edgarblythe wrote:

I'm with you, jl.

So am I, JL...

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Foxfyre wrote:

"Conservative" and "Liberal" in their classic definitions are, I think, not useful in today's politcal climate. Currently it is the so-called neo-cons who are the progressives, pushing for positive change, new innovations, new approaches to old problems. And it is the neo-libs who have their heels dug in, and who raise shrill voices of protest accusing the neo-cons of wishing to dismantle all the great programs that eliminate poverty, alleviate suffering, create equality, etc. etc. etc. that were developed by progressives of an earlier age when they were pushing for positive change, new innovations, new approaches to old problems.

Very true. Which is why we need to distinquish between Progressives and progressives, Liberals, and liberals, and Conservatives and conservatives.

I disagree that the conservatives are in the minority. I think the last several elections suggest that the country overall still tilts conservative and this is reflected at the polls. I think not any one of us, however, is all conservative or all liberal--we are all a mix of wishing to conserve those parts of our culture that we appreciate and cherish and at the same time approve of intiiatives to be better.

There are men and women of integrity and conviction at all levels of government. But while the Republicans allow a more friendly environment for those who tilt conservative, and this accounts for their success over the last decade, both Republicans and Democrats are primarily self-serving and bent on their own self-preservation rather than focused on us and a better U.S.A. In other words they both tell us and give us what they think we think we want rather than what is best.

Meanwhile, they keep us in line by pitting us against each other and pushing the rhetoric that inflames and insults and inspires partisanship.

And we like sheep let them.

I always have a problem with this sort of "we are sheep" rhetoric.

First of all it is nearly always delivered by someone who very clearly doesn't believe he or she is actually a member of the flock. Doesn't identification of the herd mentality remove oneself from it?

Secondly, it implies that we sheep would actually have it some other way, that we are desirous of an alternative approach if we just didn't succumb to this reflexive response to the shephard's rhetoric. The rhetoric is used because it works. Politicians are not anywhere near clever or diabolical enough to come up with rhetoric that is capable of forcing the citizenry to move in a direction in which it is not already inclined. Have a politican advance notions that are in conflict with the general will and desires of the people and you will see how quickly the sheep become wolves.

I think we could be better though.

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I was once a registered (conservative) republican. How can any conservative of today really support the actions of this administration? Cutting taxes during a time of war is insane when this administration and congress doesn't have the stomach to reduce their spending to the level of revenue! This creates the biggest problem for our country's economy for now and the future.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

I was once a registered (conservative) republican. How can any conservative of today really support the actions of this administration? Cutting taxes during a time of war is insane when this administration and congress doesn't have the stomach to reduce their spending to the level of revenue! This creates the biggest problem for our country's economy for now and the future.

You argue as if any Adminsitration has every been entirely true to liberal or conservative dogma (whatever that might be).

Pick a President and we will have no problem identifiying polices of his adminsitration that seemingly fly in the face of the political label ascribed to them and their supporters.

I didn't know you could register as a conservative or (conservative) Republican. In what state did you live at the time?

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Finn writes

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First of all it is nearly always delivered by someone who very clearly doesn't believe he or she is actually a member of the flock. Doesn't identification of the herd mentality remove oneself from it?

You are right of course--we neocons are almost all quite independent thinkers and require a convincing rationale before we will agree to anything. So sheep is a poor metaphor. How about goats? Here we also have the herd, but the creatures won't participate without a good reason to do so.

The problem we have is that the GOP as the new 'progressives' are so far ahead of the Democrats that we have to appreciate that the country is better off with them in charge. And there is really no alternative out there that is acceptable to the large majority of the right. But sometimes I think we are so anxious to insure that the better choice is in power, we fail to demand that the better choice give us its best. It isn't enough to win elections--we want top quality results in return for our votes. If we didn't learn anything else from the Democrats, we should have learned that to allow complacency (for six decades) is not the best course for the country.

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Quote, "...complacency (for six decades) is not the best course for the country.." And I always thought there was a fair share of GOP control in the white house and/or congress. Awe, shucks, must get back to my history books. Seems I've been mislead all these past six decades or so.

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My beliefs as a conservative

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