Choice and Sex-Selection abortions.

Forums: Abortion, Culture, Feminism
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I found an interesting cognitive dissonance. It seems there are people who...

- Believe that women have the right to choose an abortion for any reason.
- And, believe that women should not have the right to use abortion to insure they have boys (i.e. have an abortion if their developing fetus is a girl).

In another thread the issue of culture was mentioned, there are cultures where many women favor having male children (e.g. India and China). In these cultures there is strong evidence that sex-selection abortion is happening.

Do women have the right to chose to abort female children because they prefer males? Would you accept legislation to restrict this practice?

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

I found an interesting cognitive dissonance. It seems there are people who...

- Believe that women have the right to choose an abortion for any reason.
- And, believe that women should not have the right to use abortion to insure they have boys

Despite the information at the link I provide you with, you refuse to make a distinction between women who choose to have an abortion because they don't want a baby, and women who choose to have an abortion because of the social/cultural pressure to not have female babies. Your thinking fails because you refuse to acknowledge that, in India, a male baby is celebrated while a female baby is considered a scourge. This is cognitive dissonance.

Here's a reminder to help you recall what you've forgotten:

It is a crime in India to use an ultrasound to determine the sex of a child and it is also illegal to perform an abortion based on gender, but the laws are rarely enforced.

Aravamudan said that the Indian issue of gendercide is unrelated to the American debate on abortion.

"This is not about pro-life or pro-choice," Aravamudan said. "This is about pro-women, anti-women. I'm not against abortion. This is a crime against women and I am against that."

Last July, in a effort to expose doctors breaking the laws, two activists with a hidden camera, posing as a husband and his five-months-pregnant wife, walked into an ultrasound clinic to hear their test results. The doctor didn't mince words, immediately breaking the law to tell the couple the gender of the fetus.

"It is not a good report as it is a girl child," he said.

He recommended the fetus be aborted and offered the woman an illegal injection to induce a miscarriage for 60,000 to 70,000 rupees -- between $1,100 and $1,300.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/women-pregnant-girls-pressured-abortions-india/story?id=15103950
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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Do women have the right to chose to abort female children because they prefer males? Would you accept legislation to restrict this practice?

I believe that women have the right to have an abortion for any reason they choose, or indeed, no reason at all.

No, I would not support legislation to restrict this practice.

I do think if there are cultures that "push" a woman to abort a female fetus and keep a male fetus then I would support legislation to counter that pressure. I don't think a woman should have that pressure pushed onto them.

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@Glennn,

Quote:

It is a crime in India to use an ultrasound to determine the sex of a child and it is also illegal to perform an abortion based on gender, but the laws are rarely enforced.

Do you agree with this law?

If a woman wants an abortion based on gender, should the government prevent her from getting one?

1 Reply

@maporsche,

Quote:

I do think if there are cultures that "push" a woman to abort a female fetus and keep a male fetus then I would support legislation to counter that pressure. I don't think a woman should have that pressure pushed onto them.

I respect your consistency, that you support a woman's right in any circumstances. But I am not exactly sure what you mean by "legislation to counter that pressure".

There are cultures where having sons is celebrated. In some of them the number of children is limited by resources or by policy. In these cultures women genuinely want to ensure they have a male child.

If you give women the choice to have a sex selecting abortion, some women will choose this option.

What legislation would you propose? Obviously laws prohibiting violence or threats against women are a good idea. But, that doesn't stop the women who genuinely want a sex selection abortion from getting one.

I don't think you can have choice unless you accept that some women will exercise their right to make that choice.

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@maxdancona,

I’m thinking things like extra tax credits for female children or funding programs that promote the birth of female children. Programs that discourage sexual selection and push against the culture that promotes them.

I’m thinking through whether or not I support the ban on identifying gender through the ultrasound.

2 Replies

@maporsche,

Quote:

I’m thinking things like extra tax credits for female children or funding programs that promote the birth of female children.

I can't imagine how something like this could have any unintended consequences.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I also don’t know that it’s unreasonable for people to hold the following opinions at the same time.

1) hate abortions
2) are pro-choice because they think women have the right to determine if thy have a child and to have one In a safe setting
3) don’t believe that the right is unlimited and support a ban based on fetus viability
4) support a ban on gender-specific abortions

I don’t see an ideological disconnect for that person. As it pertains to this topic this voter would support the choice to be pregnant or not pregnant but not the choice to be pregnant with a male fetus or not pregnant/abort with a female fetus. In this case the woman could always lie though and not say it’s a gender-abortion.

This example does not represent my beliefs but it’s just an example of how someone can hold these opinions in a idealogically sound way.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

Quote:

I’m thinking through whether or not I support the ban on identifying gender through the ultrasound.

Just to make it clear, we are talking about pressuring women to bring female babies to term. All of the ideas you are putting forward are geared toward changing the behavior of women.

Passing a law to withhold medical information from a woman seems rather sinister. And, it is not just ultrasound, now there are blood tests that determine the gender of a fetus (from the mother's blood).

A government program to bribe women to bring a baby to term is just as awkward.

All of your ideas would make Mike Pence very happy.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
I’m thinking things like extra tax credits for female children or funding programs that promote the birth of female children.

I can't imagine how something like this could have any unintended consequences.

And when that happens you simply phase out the tax credits. Not difficult Max.

Is your imagination or ability to ideate broken?

1 Reply

@maporsche,

I get the position you are staking out. There are two problems with it.

1. the rhetoric used to defend a woman's choice.
2. the details of banning one type of abortion based on the intent of the mother.

As a educated, White, entitled professional parent... I would go crazy if medical information was withheld from my wife. We paid for the ultrasound. We cared deeply about our developing baby.

I can't imagine how I would have reacted had the doctor said; I am prohibited by law from telling you about the ultrasound.

Of course, you don't need an ultrasound. They can determine the gender of a baby by a simple blood test (drawing blood from the mother). A government crackdown on ultrasound would likely lead to back alley blood tests.

There is no practical way to uphold a government ban on abortions based on the "intent" of the mother. You are going to end up with a medical panel to decide whether an abortion can take place... this is an ideological nightmare for people on both sides of the issue.

I don't think that there is a logically sound way to hold these positions.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Hmmm. Strange response Max.

I’m not worried about the government implementing policy that changes its civilians behavior (if that’s what the democratically elected government decides to do - and citizens (including women) have the ability to vote out these politicians). All government policies are designed to influence behavior one way or the other.

Similarly I also support American government policies that tries to influence our culture to help little girls have a positive body image and make them less likely to have eating disorders and suicidal thoughts.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

Bribing people to control their behavior often backfires. It is a simplistic and often shortsighted way to solve a perceived problem.

On NPR they just did a story on what happened when they bribed heroine addicts to get into treatment. It was a disaster.

0 Replies

@maporsche,

Quote:

Similarly I also support American government policies that tries to influence our culture to help little girls have a positive body image and make them less likely to have eating disorders and suicidal thoughts.

Can you give me an example of a government program to change people's behavior actually worked?

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

Then I don’t see a way to support the ultrasound gender ban.

I don’t think that withholding the gender is some huge medical issue though. I know two friends who waited until birth to find out the gender and the doctors who took care of their medical needs handled everything just fine.

You’re inflating the gender/medical information issue purposefully and I call bullshit.

But you’re right, people will find out if they want to some other way so it doesn’t make sense to have that ban in place.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

Quote:

You’re inflating the gender/medical information issue purposefully and I call bullshit.

How am I inflating it. Have you had the experience of sitting with the doctor watching the ultrasound of your own child?

I don't want the government between me and my doctor (which is one of the strongest arguments in favor of choice).

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Millions of women choose to have children with the gender unknown. They also have ultrasounds and have all the relevant medical information told to them.

Gender is not some medical information that has anything to do with the health of the baby.

If there is some gender specific problem, the doctor would tell the parents even if that means disclosing the gender.

You’re inflating the importance of gender on baby health and that’s the bullshit.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

Quote:

Millions of women choose to have children with the gender unknown

I assume you understand the meaning of the word "choose".... this is about choice.

You are suggesting that we pass a law, where the government restricts the information that can be passed to a woman from her doctor under penalty of law. In this case a woman no longer has a choice. It is no longer the woman and her doctor deciding what information is important for her. It is the government who decides.

You can hem and haw all you want. But that is what you are suggesting.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Geeze Max; I'm not saying that I, personally, support passing this law.

In fact, just a post or two ago I just came out and said that I personally do NOT support this law.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

Do you agree with this law?

Why do you think this law is in place?

Quote:

If a woman wants an abortion based on gender, should the government prevent her from getting one?

No. However, one would have to be naïve to not understand the pressure applied by society/culture to a pregnant woman in India.

1 Reply

Choice and Sex-Selection abortions.

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