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Threatened with divorce once again- am I crazy?

 
 
mit2727
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 05:51 pm
In response to recent posts...

1) I mentioned "let" my wife do anything she wants- for the record- I have never told my wife she can't do something, she has never asked permission, and she does what she wants when she wants to. Thats fine by me, I would like the same courtesy. Am I a "dominant personality" I don't know, maybe, but only in the sense that I can't stand my wife trying to control my every move.

2) 70 work, about two hours a day on weekdays. That leaves WEEKENDS for all the other things we do together, which are typically poker free. I do everything I can to try not to work on days that start with S.

3) Again, why shouldn't we be able to compromise? Why do I just have to let her, once again, DICTATE to me how I'm going spend every moment of my time? I'm willing to give up poker all together if we can work on the underlting issues.
0 Replies
 
mit2727
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 05:56 pm
Oh and to answer another question, she won't see a couseler becuase she feels like I'm the one with the problem and our marriage would be "fine" if I just do what she says, not becuase she has an aversion to them in general. Its her terms, her conditions period, or divorce. I have suggested dozens of solutions, and she is not interested.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 06:01 pm
Ok, I just didn't like the way the " I let her" sounded. Well, if she's not going to bend, then I don't see anything other than divorce in your future.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 08:02 pm
mit2727 wrote:
Oh and to answer another question, she won't see a couseler becuase she feels like I'm the one with the problem and our marriage would be "fine" if I just do what she says, not becuase she has an aversion to them in general. Its her terms, her conditions period, or divorce. I have suggested dozens of solutions, and she is not interested.


Well, if that's the case and everything else you've stated is true then, were I in your shoes, I'd be talking to a divorce lawyer.

It just seems to me that if someone is willing to put things in terms of "it's X or a divorce" they've already pretty much decided where things are going. I'm not a big fan of ultimatums and usually when people offer them I give them the choice that they think I don't want. Relationship blackmail was fine in the 1st year of high school. After that it gets old in a hurry.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 08:06 pm
Yup. I agree completely, Fishin.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 08:08 pm
Gee, you had ultimatums in high school? Boy, was I a late bloomer. LOL
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Taliesin181
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 09:50 pm
mit: I didn't read the middle of these pages, so if I'm merely repeating people. I apologize.

In my opinion, an ultimatum is an excuse for the person making it. They ask you to give things up time and time again, and when they still aren't happy (as they never will be) they finally give a big push and try and make you break up with them so they can feel like the victim. Remember: It's all about the high ground: moral, economic, or power-related.
I would recommend telling her (if you haven't already), very calmly, that these power struggles and ultimatums will destroy everything if they persist, but you are willing to make concessions IF a) they are reasonable concessions (I don't think such a profitable hobby such as yours is reasonable, IMO), and b) if SHE is willing to do the same. Remember: a good relationship is about balance between the partners.
If this doesn't work, then I'm sorry to say that neither of you will ever be happy, probably, and that divorce is the only thing I can think of after that.
Good luck, and I hope it goes well.
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 09:53 pm
Hm, some of us are all to ready to always put the blame
on the guy, no matter what. Maybe one should address the
issue without looking at the gender too closely.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what problem initiated the ultimatum; an ultimatum is an ultimatum, period.
It is a powerstruggle to gain control over the other person.
These are the facts. How one deals with an ultimatum is
his/her choice of action.

Since this is not the first ultimatum mit2727 was presented
with, he has to find a way to resolve this problem in a manner
that is acceptable to both parties. He is willing to meet
her halfway, she is not interested in any cooperation: It is
her way, or the highway.

mit2727, metaphorically speaking, your wife is putting the gun to your head and if you don't dance to her tune, she'll pull the trigger. It's up to you if you enjoy playing Russian roulette, or take the gun away from her.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 09:59 pm
Yup!
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 10:10 pm
There seem to be two general reactions here, and I fall in the camp of those who bristle at ultimatum using and control sequences.

I also understand the need to unwind after a, what, 13 or 14 hour day, and not discuss every little thing that happened that day for each spouse. Yes, sure, sometimes, but sometimes not.

I remember my coming home after fourteen hour workdays exhausted, with my husband cooking dinner, and just curling up and relaxing in the same house. And vice versa, sometimes it was he who could hardly move, back when he delivered furniture and stayed up half the night writing.
People need to decompensate, and a friendly touch or kiss can be kinder, more heartening, than an expectation for complete attention.

It may be that you haven't always been thoughtful of her, mits, but I can't determine that from your posts; you sound fairly thoughtful to me.
She does sound a bit hysteric in this all encompassing rule you should follow, with no discussion, no counselling.

I'd be talking with a lawyer (I know you're one, but don't handle it all yourself) at least for a general interview, and I'd also consider counselling on your own, to put the pieces together in your mind.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 11:09 pm
From the marriage builder's website:

Dr. Harley wrote:
I've written a Q&A column that column wrestles with the complaint, "We Don't Spend Enough Time with Each Other." Neglect not only withdraws love units, but it turns out to be the single most important reason that women divorce men, and they divorce men twice as often as men divorce women.

Men, if you want to keep your wife around, listen up. The article "Why Women Leave Men" gets right to the core of the issue, and hopefully after reading it, you will avoid the pain expressed by so many men who now understand the issue, but find that it's too late for them.

If you have not been in the habit of spending 15 hours a week for undivided attention, it will mean that something else that takes 15 hours will have to go. But you have about 110 total waking hours each week that is spent doing something, and if you schedule your time productively, you will find that the 15 hours you lose will have been spent on your least important goals. And you will put in its place 15 hours for your most important goal. Think of it -- your highest priority will take the place of your lowest priority. It will radically change your life for the better, because in exchange for something that really isn't that important to you, you will be investing in the single most important factor in your life -- your relationship with your spouse.


If my husband worked 70-80 hours a week and then came home and spent an average of 2 hours every evening playing poker on the computer, I would feel neglected. I would express my feelings, and if my husband still chose to play poker rather than spend time with me, I would feel terribly hurt.

Eventually, I too would issue an ultimatum: Choose poker or choose me . . . and if you choose poker, I will seek a divorce.

IF HE LOVES HIS WIFE and wants to save his marriage, Mit2727 needs to quit gambling and he needs to start building a better relationship with his wife.
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 11:26 pm
Debra, mit2727 claims, he spends the entire weekend
with his wife, that's by far more than 15 hours of undivided
attention.

Granted, he's playing poker as it brings him joy and helps
him to unwind, however, realizing that 2 hours à day is
too much, mit2727 is willing to forgo his online poker play
to accommodate his wife. In turn he's asking for joint
counseling, for which he's turned down.

Given the fact that mit2727 is willing to change his habits
and his wife isn't, what advise do you have for him? (aside
from giving up poker, since he's willing to do so anyway).

The gambling is not the issue in this marriage, at least not
by my definition.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 02:41 am
Quote:
Life goes on with only minor glitches until now. My hobby de jure is playing poker. I would never dare to leave for an afternoon to play a live game, but I have taken to sitting on the couch next to my wife and playing online. I am quite good at it- 2 years ago I put in 50$ to my online poker account and it is now at about 6K


This problem has been going on for TWO YEARS.

Quote:
At some point my wife decided that she didn't like me playing poker because it was taking time away from us. Many a night I would come home from a long days work just wanting to sit down with my wife, relax and play a game of poker only to have my wife say "no poker tonight." Again 99% of the time I would comply, and this is about the 1% that I said dammnit, I'll play if I want to.


She "decided" she didn't like him playing poker? His choice of words are curious. She felt neglected because his poker playing (going on for two years) was taking time away from them as a couple. But, according to him, his wife just decides everything . . . so I guess when she expresses her feelings . . . she's making decisions about how she feels.

Quote:
In an abundance of fairness, I probably play too much poker. I play I would say, on average, two hours a night. . . .


Quote:
A few nights ago, she said "no more poker." I said OK, I'll shut it down for the night. She said "no, I mean no more poker, ever. You are going to stop playing for a long time until I decide that you have shown me that you can control your playing, and then I will let you play in moderation."


For two years, he has not shown moderation. He can't control his playing. He wants to play an average of two hours every night. He works 70-80 hours a week (apparently Monday through Friday). Therefore, he works 14-16 hours a day, comes home, and then glues himself to computer poker for another two hours. That encompasses all the awake hours of the day.

Obviously, they have been having lots of discussions about how this has been bothering his wife over the course of two years. I don't think this is a case of her DECIDING things . . . I think this is a case of her expressing her feelings and a case of him ignoring her feelings for two years. If not, why is she so concerned that he can't control his playing? People with addictions simply can't manage their addictions with moderation.

Quote:
She said I had chosen poker over my marriage and unless I agreed to stop completely and only play when she decided it was OK, we were getting divorced.


I don't trust his use of the words "she decided." She told him, unless he agreed to stop playing poker completely, she was getting a divorce. Good for her. She put up with this for two years. She was a heck of a lot more patience than most women.

Quote:
So far I have offered to...
1) quit playing poker for 6 months and then work out a compromise as to when I can play. OR

2) Give up poker perminatly, if she agrees to go with me to marriage counseling and establish boundaries for the way we fight, and the demands we are allowed to make on one and other.

As per 1) she says its her terms or divorce, no compromise becuase "I had my chance to compromise early on and now I've lost that chance"

As per 2) she refuses- she says I am the one with the problem and am choosing poker over her, and she doesn't need couseling, I just need to do what she says.


He had TWO YEARS to work out a compromise to this problem, but he didn't do it. He didn't control his own playing. He didn't use moderation. The only time he pulled himself away from online poker was when she put her foot down.

His wife is right. He's the one with the problem. He's the one who continually chose to play poker instead of spending time with his wife. Why should she have to go to counseling in order to learn her boundaries and what demands she is allowed to make? Her request, or demand, or "decision" that he should play in moderation was a reasonable one, but he wouldn't control himself.

If he was beating her for two years, she should be able to tell him, "if you don't stop beating me, I will get a divorce." Why does he get any say in the matter? Would it be reasonable for him to say: "Okay . . . I'll stop beating you IF you go to counseling so you can learn not to tell me to stop beating you in the future."

His offer to quit gambling IF she went to counseling with him to "establish boundaries for the way we fight, and the demands we are allowed to make on one and other" is ridiculous. After two years of fighting over it, he now knows that he is going to lose his wife if he doesn't stop gambling every night after work.


Quote:
I realize that playing too much may be neglectfull given I work a 70-80 hour/week job, but we go to the theater and the ballet and movies and rockets games, out with our friends and all that stuff at least two nights a week.


Quote:
1) I mentioned "let" my wife do anything she wants- for the record- I have never told my wife she can't do something, she has never asked permission, and she does what she wants when she wants to. Thats fine by me, I would like the same courtesy. Am I a "dominant personality" I don't know, maybe, but only in the sense that I can't stand my wife trying to control my every move.

2) 70 work, about two hours a day on weekdays. That leaves WEEKENDS for all the other things we do together, which are typically poker free. I do everything I can to try not to work on days that start with S.

3) Again, why shouldn't we be able to compromise? Why do I just have to let her, once again, DICTATE to me how I'm going spend every moment of my time? I'm willing to give up poker all together if we can work on the underlting issues.


She does not control his every move nor dictate every moment of his time. Monday through Friday, he has his time tied up with 14-16 hours of work and 2 hours of poker. That's every awake moment of the work week. Obviously she has had NO control over hardly ANY of his time or his poker playing wouldn't be an issue. And, this has gone on for two years. Again, he's being overly dramatic.

Oh well, he gives her some time on weekends. Why should she complain? Well . . . perhaps she got married so she could have daily interaction with the man she loves. Maybe she didn't bargain on being ignored five days out of every week.

From the marriage builder's website:

Dr. Harley wrote:
The number of hours you schedule to be together each week for undivided attention should reflect the quality of your marriage. If your marriage is satisfying to you and your spouse, schedule fifteen hours each week to be together. But if you suffer marital dissatisfaction, plan more time until marital satisfaction is achieved.

How much time do you need to sustain the feeling of love for each other? Believe it or not, there really is an answer to this question, and it depends on the health of a marriage. If a couple is deeply in love with each other and find that their marital needs are being met, I have found that about fifteen hours each week of undivided attention is usually enough to sustain their love. When a marriage is this healthy, either it's a new marriage or the couple has already been spending that amount of time with each other throughout their marriage. Without fifteen hours of undivided attention each week, a couple simply can't do what it takes to sustain their feeling of love for each other.

When I apply the fifteen-hour principle to marriages, I usually recommend that the time be evenly distributed throughout the week, two to three hours each day. When time must be bunched up -- all hours only on the weekend -- good results are not as predictable. Spouses need to be emotionally reconnected almost on a daily basis to meet each other's most important emotional needs. . . .

Your time together is too important to the security of your marriage to neglect. It's more important than time spent doing anything else during the week, including time with your children and your job. Remember that the time you should set aside is only equivalent to a part-time job. It isn't time you don't have; it's time you will use for something less important, if you don't use it for each other.


For two years, the wife struggled with neglect and loneliness every evening after work while her husband chose to ignore her in favor of spending two hours playing online poker. He sacrificed his marriage in favor of his poker addiction.

I understand that others will take HIS side . . . but I'm going to take HER side on this. I just wonder what took her so long. . . .
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 07:01 am
Hmmmm..... You make some very good points, Debra.

Actually, I am not taking sides either way. All I know is that this marriage is not going to work.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 08:48 am
I agree that Debra makes some very good points -- in fact, I think she is dead on right, and I suspect that if mit2727 would do some serious introspection, he would see that she is. I don't share Montana's pessimism for the eventual outcome, but do think serious changes will need to occur in order for the marriage to survive. The question is whether mit2727 is willing to take the first step to effect those changes. I think the next step is his ... and his decision may very well decide whether his marriage survives or doesn't.
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 09:14 am
I'm sorry, anyone who behaves in a manner like destroying
the partner's property (clothes) due to a trivial altercation,
has some serious problems.

You are all hung up on the poker game. No one addresses
her temper tantrums (except Bella) and her destructive
behavior.

I can tell you now already, even if mit2727 stops playing
poker and spends all the free time with her, she won't
be satisfied. She is showing a pattern of absolute contol
over her spouse that won't diminish with him giving
into her every wishes.

She needs counseling and the fact that she refuses to do
so, as all the problems are generated within her husband,
speaks for itself.

You all seem to omit the fact, that mit2727 is willing to change.
Does anyone ever redeem himself under your eyes? I realize
that lawyers take only one side and defend it, no matter what Wink

If it were reversed, and mit2727 would be a woman telling
the story of out of control behavior and destroying clothes,
you all would be up in arms. The fact that mit2727 is a male,
changes everything in your mind.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 09:35 am
I agree, CJ.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 09:37 am
Sure, mit2727 is willing to change ... but to this point only on his terms and his conditions. He is not demonstrating his willingness to listen to his wife's needs. He is demonstrating selfishness. This is the same selfishness that he is demonstrating when he plays poker and ignores his wife, and it's the same selfishness that has driven his wife to this unhealthy point in their marriage.

I'm not condoning his wife's behavior in any way. I agree that her destructive behavior is indicative of "serious problems." And I"m not hung up on the poker game. But it seems that it's the poker game, or it's basketball, or its something.

You are predicting the outcome if mit2727 submits and begins to satisfy his wife. I would suggest the opposite response, and I think he would see a tremendous change over his wife if instead of spending his time absorbed in himself (watching basketball, playing poker, etc.) he would devote some time to dote on his wife. He should reflect upon how he acted towards her during their courtship. Is he treating her the same now as he did then? Is he taking her for granted? At any rate, does she think he's taking her for granted -- that's the most important question.

You are correct ... one approach that mit2727 could take is to draw his own line in the sand and be stubborn, and tell himself that if he gives into his wife he is a mouse, and she is dictating to him, and he wants to be his own man. If he makes that choice, I submit he had decided he would prefer not to be married to his woman, and would prefer to simply do what he wants to do, and not be concerned about his wife.

If on the other hand he decides he prefers to be married to her as opposed to the alternative, he should demonstrate that fact by showing her he cares about her feelings and desires. It's his choice ... I'm simply advising him that it's his choice, and now is the time to make it.
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mit2727
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:06 am
Please put yourselves in my shoes...

It is NOT about a single issue. In the past few years my wife has forbade me to watch TV, play X Box, work out more than three times a week, etc. All under threats of divorce... Yes, my wifes idea of a relaxing evening may be to sit quielty and talk for three hours, but I have ADD and this is torture to me.

I am TIRED of feeling guilty for working 70 hours a week. It is NOT my choice. I grew up poor, and I'm not going to put my kids in the position of working construction and as a prison guard to get themselves through college and law school. There is no worse feeling than working your ass off to get out the door, calling home and saying you need 30 more minutes, and getting bitched at.

This is my typical day, I work from 6AM to 7PM. I come home to a wife who is already pissed off at me becuase I worked too late. I am stressed and want to work out, but I don't go to the gym becuase that would be unaccetable. I offer to go catch a movie. She says she wants to stay in. We end up watching something on TV that doesn't interest me. Its 900, two hours before bed and another 13 hour day of documement review. I pick up my laptop and join a poker game. I have been talking to my wife about her day and playing for about an hour when she notices what I'm doing. I'm crushing the game and about to win the tounament and about $600. "Do you HAVE to play that every night." "Sorry, I'll finish up in about 30 minutes and we can do whatever you want" "TURN IT OFF NOW." "Seriously, I'm about to win 600, if I do, we'll go out to cozamel the weekend after next." My wife then proceeds to go upstairs and disconnect my wi fi connection, I loose my $50 entry fee.

So my wife has needs. Is it possible that I have an "emotional need" to be able to spend a *gasp* few hours a night or even a week as I have offered in comprmise, doing something I enjoy?
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:17 am
Don't feel bad mit. Your request, in my opinion, is not at all selfish.
My husband comes home after a 10-12 hour day and all he asks is that he get 30 minutes without me wanting attention or sitting in his lap while he stares at the tv or the wall or whatever. Basically, he needs time to decompress. Sometimes it is hard for me because i had a bad or very good day and want to talk. And sometimes we get in a tift about it. But never ever, have I threatened divorce or ruined his stuff.

I think that perhaps you were ignoring your wifes needs but she is blatently ignoring yours too. Everyone needs a little me time. A little time to veg out and decompress. Especially after a long day at work.

My personal opinion is, if you still love your wife, (God bless you if you do), you NEED to seek counseling. If she refuses, she isn't worth it because nothing will ever change. Ever. Her behavior is way out of line. She is not demonstrating a need for your attention. She is demonstrating a need for control of your life. And if you want to give that up, keep on letting her boss you around and cry like a toddler when you don't comply.

I don't mean to sound harsh but if you can't see that this is ruining your marriage and potentially your life, you need help as well.

People are needy. They need the companionship and affection of their partners. But asking for 30 mins to 1 hour of alone (but sitting in the same room) time is not in any way selfish and bizarre.
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