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Mon 7 Mar, 2005 12:22 pm
This may not be as exciting as a "rear entry advice needed" but I am grasping at straws to figure out if I am being unreasonable in my marriage or just trying to do what it takes to preserve my sanity... Here's the situation, sorry about the length and all replies get a special star in their crown....
My wife likes to call the shots (sounds pretty typical), what may be atypical is the extent to which she will go to try and exert her will over me when I tell her she is not going to get what she wants. I think this is exacerbated by the fact that she feels completely dependant on me financially and emotionally, so if she can't control me, she has no control over any part of her life (which is not true, she is smart and has a decent job, and no children to support, but not one that would afford her the lifestlye we currently live (I make a lot of jack and I think she is convinced she couldn't get by on less than 170K/year)). The best way to explain the situation and where we stand today is to explain the course of a two fights over the past few years...
99% of the time, when my wife asks me to do something, I do it. Heres what happens for the other one percent...
A few years back I was watching a basketball game. My wife decided that I had been watching too much TV and not was not spending enough time with her (it was a tough semester at law school and I had been studying quite a bit). She ordered me to turn off the TV and "talk." I said we could talk while I was watching the game, and I would turn it off after the game, but I wanted to finish my game. She responds by getting up and unplugging the TV. I plug it back in. She unplugs it again and sits on the floor next to the plug. I go upstairs into the bedroom, lock the door and turn on the TV. She starts destroying my clothes until I unlock the door. I leave, she locks me out of the house, tells me we are getting divorced, and I sleep on a bench at the law school the night before a big final.
Life goes on with only minor glitches until now. My hobby de jure is playing poker. I would never dare to leave for an afternoon to play a live game, but I have taken to sitting on the couch next to my wife and playing online. I am quite good at it- 2 years ago I put in 50$ to my online poker account and it is now at about 6K, I have never put any money into the account other than the $50. At some point my wife decided that she didn't like me playing poker because it was taking time away from us. Many a night I would come home from a long days work just wanting to sit down with my wife, relax and play a game of poker only to have my wife say "no poker tonight." Again 99% of the time I would comply, and this is about the 1% that I said dammnit, I'll play if I want to.
In an abundance of fairness, I probably play too much poker. I play I would say, on average, two hours a night- about as much as most people watch TV, but maybe my wife has a point in that is disconnects me from her more than watching TV does, but I think the jury is still out on that one. So, at long last, HERE IS THE SITUATION.
A few nights ago, she said "no more poker." I said OK, I'll shut it down for the night. She said "no, I mean no more poker, ever. You are going to stop playing for a long time until I decide that you have shown me that you can control your playing, and then I will let you play in moderation." I replied "it doesn't work that way, if you think I play too much, we can agree that I only play one night a week, or a few hours a week or some such compromise, but you can't treat me like a four year old and say "I can play when you decide I am ready to handle the responsibility"" She said there is no compromise and I was going to do what she said. I said you can't stop me from playing poker if thats what I want to do, so its best to handle this like adults and compromise. She responded by taking the laptop from me and changing the password. I left, went and worked out, and then went to my office, and called her to see if she wanted to talk about it. She said I had decided to leave and I should stay gone. I said fine and played some poker at my office for a few hours and called again. She said I couldn't come home (to my house, where I pay the entire mortgage) and I should get a hotel room. She said I had chosen poker over my marriage and unless I agreed to stop completely and only play when she decided it was OK, we were getting divorced. I am now living in a hotel. Its expensive to live in a hotel and pay a mortgage, but so far my now unfettered poker winnings are paying for it.
So far I have offered to...
1) quit playing poker for 6 months and then work out a compromise as to when I can play. OR
2) Give up poker perminatly, if she agrees to go with me to marriage counseling and establish boundaries for the way we fight, and the demands we are allowed to make on one and other.
As per 1) she says its her terms or divorce, no compromise becuase "I had my chance to compromise early on and now I've lost that chance"
As per 2) she refuses- she says I am the one with the problem and am choosing poker over her, and she doesn't need couseling, I just need to do what she says.
I CAN'T GIVE IN AGAIN OR I AM GOING TO BE A BALLSLESS PUPPET FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE. On the other hand, I find it almost unthinkable to get divorced just because I don't want to give up poker on my wife's terms. But of course it goes much deeper than that.
PLEASE tell me what you think, am I being unreasonable? Should I stick to my guns even if that means divorce. If my wife will burn my clothes, she will definitely pull the trigger on the divorce over this. There are no kids involved yet so nows the time to get out if I'm going to get out.
Hmm. Change "poker" for "soccer" in your story, and it sounds awful familiar.
Make a decision: Which is more important to you ... poker or your wife. There's your answer.
BTW: when it comes to my wife, I have decided I can be a "ballsless puppet" when it comes to my relationship with her. It is a conscious decision, which I need to remind myself of constantly. I believe it shows her that I respect her wants and desires, and that I hold her up in higher esteem than soccer.
I think I've established that I'm willing to give up poker. I am now more concerned with the fact that she continues the pattern of forceing me to do things I don't want to do, an is unwilling to compormise on anything- she just thinks she can "put her foot down", but I don't have the same privledge-- and I don't know if I can live like that. Is it not reasonable to at least ask her to see a counseler if I agree to give up poker for ever?
I think the choice is a little more complex than that.
From the story we are given (and there could be another side to the story) the wife is unwilling to compromise and is unwilling to discuss it in counseling.
The refusal to discuss it is a big red flag to me; I've never been a big fan of ultimatums.
Sounds like you have quite the power struggle going on in your marriage; but there are more choices available than dominate or submit. Compromise is necessary in any relationship and doubly so in marriage.
mit2727 wrote:I think I've established that I'm willing to give up poker. I am now more concerned with the fact that she continues the pattern of forceing me to do things I don't want to do, an is unwilling to compormise on anything- she just thinks she can "put her foot down", but I don't have the same privledge-- and I don't know if I can live like that. Is it not reasonable to at least ask her to see a counseler if I agree to give up poker for ever?
In my case I offered to go cold turkey on soccer (I didn't want to, but it seemed like it would be easier to do than only play a little bit), but my wife didn't want me to do that .. only cut back. Waaay back (ie, 1 game per week). I agreed. Now, I usually play a couple of games a week, sometimes 3. She relented. Your wife probably will too.
Because of the bizarre similarities between your story and my own, I would offer my perception on the "rationale" behind your wife's demands. I don't think my wife was merely forcing me to do things I didn't want to do, or forcing me to not do the things I wanted to do,
she wanted me to respect her wishes and desires. By my saying, in effect, "I don't care that you only want me to play 1 game a week, I want to play what I want to play," I was telling her, "I don't respect your wishes and desires more than I respect my own."
By conditioning your giving up poker on her agreeing to see a counselor, you are not showing your unconditional love for her, or that you are willing to abide by her wishes even though you really don't want to, just because you love her. When you do that, you will be showing her a great deal of respect. You will be treating her as the queen in your life that you ought to be. That may be all she needs. I wouldn't be too concerned that she is going to demand more and more. She is trying to tell you she wants to spend more time with you. Take advantage of that while you have it. If you don't, it might change to the point where she doesn't want to spend that time with you. You must decide whether that is acceptable to you.
This may be a pride/ego thing with you. It was in my case. I got over it.
BTW again: I also wanted to have us go to a 3rd party counselor (because I was convinced the counselor would take my side and tell my wife she was being unreasonable). Me being selfish again. :wink:
Now, you must excuse me, because I have to go to court. Our stories are even that much more eerily similar.
Last week, my wife came into the computer room where I spend most of my time, and she asked if we could have a serious talk. I asked her to give me a few seconds to finish my entry, then turned around to face her to get my complete attention. Compromise is necessary for any marriage to work. It should not be necessary for one to concede all issues just to keep the marriage.
Sorry, Ti...but in my opinion anyone...man or woman...who allows a companion to DICTATE what must or must not be done...
...is a mouse.
Luckily, Nancy would never even think of dictating to me about my conduct...so I do not have to deal with it in my present personal life. And, quite honestly, I have never encountered such an imposition any other time in my life...and this includes two wives and several dozen girlfriends.
There is something wierd...and perverse about people who dictate conditions. I would never even negotiate with anyone attempting to do so...and I have a tough time mustering any respect for anyone who does.
Take that 6K and buy your wife some jewelry. Then ask here if she wouldn't mind if you played twice a week.
DrewDad wrote:Sounds like you have quite the power struggle going on in your marriage; but there are more choices available than dominate or submit. Compromise is necessary in any relationship and doubly so in marriage.
<Nodding vigorously>
That's what I picked up on too, that there seems to be an all or nothing vibe going on from both of them. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this latest were the symptom of something more general -- that she worries you're not interested in her anymore, that her life feels lacking, that she has self-esteem issues, that she doesn't feel as much of a connection to you as she used to -- whatever.
Which is
not to say she's going about expressing these concerns correctly -- ultimatums never seem to be very constructive -- but that treating this one issue as all or nothing rather than taking a stab at the underlying issues probably will just delay a recurrence, rather than really solve anything.
Ticomaya,
Thanks for the last post and please don't take this the wrong way, but can any marriage survive with an imbalence of power or ultimatums and threats of divorce over any issue? Did yours?
I would certainly not live with constant ultimatums and threat of divorce. The issue isn't football or poker. It is the threats. I won't offer advice, but I would have to take her up on her offer.
Mit2727:
Your wife feels neglected. Left to your own choice, you would choose to play two hours of poker every night while your wife sits on the couch next to you. Maybe this is your vision of marital fullfillment, but it's not her vision.
Needless to say, she's tired of playing second fiddle to your "hobby de jure." At times, she would TELL you -- NO POKER tonight. She wanted you to voluntarily give your attention to her rather than devote your attention to a computer screen. Obviously, she loves you and wants to spend time with you. She wishes that you would choose to want to spend time with her. But you don't. Left to your own devices, you voluntarily choose poker over her -- every night -- UNLESS she puts her foot down.
She didn't force you to do anything. She gave you a choice: Choose me or choose your poker -- but you can't have both of us anymore because it isn't working.
If you were capable of limiting your own poker playing and if you were intent upon meeting your wife's need for attention, conversation, and companionship . . . she would never have been placed in the position of giving you the CHOICE.
Everyone is faced with choices. In this situation, you could have told your wife: "YOU are far more important to me than playing poker. I understand that you feel neglected . . . and I understand why you are giving me this choice . . . and I choose you."
NOPE. You took the stubborn stance and told your wife that she could not give you a choice. You said the choices she presented were not acceptable and you formulated a new series of choices that you termed as "compromise."
It's like an alcoholic telling his wife: You can't make me stop drinking and you can't leave. In compromise, I will only drink every other night or once a week . . . but you can't make me give up drinking.
Whatever. Your wife established her boundaries. She told you what she needed to make this marriage work. She needs you to give up poker because she needs attention, conversation, and companionship.
So . . . make your choice. Your wife or poker. It's a simple choice.
So what do people say? My offer is this- I will give up poker for ever if she agrees to go to conseling with me. She has rejected this offer and refuses to seek help. She has given me the choice of giving up poker on her terms, or divorce. I completely agree that its about the underlying issues, not poker. I thought that offering to give up poker, something I love, if she agreed to go to counseling to work on the issues would show that to her. Should I now just let her divorce me?
PS- Last year we took my poker winnings and went to the carribian for two weeks. Since then I have bought her a 1000K pair of earings with poker money so Duck- good idea but no dice.
Aw, I was just being silly, mit, but glad to know your heart is in the right place with the winnings.
I pretty much agree with everyone else that there are underlying issues and that it would be best if you both went to counseling. That said, it doesn't sound like she's willing to do that.
Frank Apisa wrote:Sorry, Ti...but in my opinion anyone...man or woman...who allows a companion to DICTATE what must or must not be done...
...is a mouse.
Luckily, Nancy would never even think of dictating to me about my conduct...so I do not have to deal with it in my present personal life. And, quite honestly, I have never encountered such an imposition any other time in my life...and this includes two wives and several dozen girlfriends.
There is something wierd...and perverse about people who dictate conditions. I would never even negotiate with anyone attempting to do so...and I have a tough time mustering any respect for anyone who does.
Frank has a very strong personality. He's his own man. I'm sure there is no woman alive who would dare give Frank a choice: Either me or your hobby de jure. Which probably explains why they just leave.
There you go . . . mit2727 . . . you have your answer. Kick your wife to the curb . . . neglect your women and play poker as much as you want to . . . and after two wives and several dozen girlfriends in the future . . . you can have the satisfaction of claiming you are not a mouse.
Insulting other people in the course of giving advice is not necessary, Debra.
mit, what do you think of (temporarily perhaps) giving up poker, AND going to counseling? It seems like it's part of the whole power struggle thing. If you remove that condition, just say "look, obviously we're having problems, let's go to counseling and see if we can work it out -- and to show you that I'm sincere, fine, no poker for a while" -- that might actually get you further.
mit2727 wrote:So what do people say? My offer is this- I will give up poker for ever if she agrees to go to conseling with me. She has rejected this offer and refuses to seek help. She has given me the choice of giving up poker on her terms, or divorce. I completely agree that its about the underlying issues, not poker. I thought that offering to give up poker, something I love, if she agreed to go to counseling to work on the issues would show that to her. Should I now just let her divorce me?
Wow. You have certainly manipulated your presentation. You didn't offer to go to counseling to work on issues (her need for attention, conversation, and companionship) . . . you offered to go to counseling so your wife would learn the boundaries (that she can't give you choices).
It's a manipulation on your part.
She gave you a choice: Me or poker.
CHOOSE.
I thought you went to law school? You ask, "Should I now just let her divorce me?" It's not a matter of what you "let" her do. The law doesn't require you to allow it or not. She can divorce you with or without your approval. She can cite irreconcilable differences. She can go into court . . . and place it on the PUBLIC RECORD . . . that she's divorcing you because you're a poker addict. Put that in your legal hat and smoke it.
sozobe wrote:Insulting other people in the course of giving advice is not necessary, Debra.
It's not an insult, it's an observation.
"Are you a MAN or are you a MOUSE? I've had two wives and several dozen girlfriends and not one of them have told me what to do."
Put it into perspective. This is advice from a man who openly admits that he cannot maintain a lasting relationship. This is not a matter of mit's wife telling him what to do . . . she gave him a choice. Choosing one option or the other doesn't make mit a mouse.
You are wrong Debra. She didn't give him anything but an order.
Debra, if we're putting things into perspective, we don't know nearly enough about this situation to jump to the kinds of conclusions you're jumping to. This woman is refusing to go to counseling. She's making ultimatums. She's not being constructive about trying to solve whatever (quite possibly perfectly valid) problems she has.
What we have is not a situation where one person is perfect and one is not, what we have is a situation where two people are in a flawed relationship and are at an impasse. While I don't agree with how Frank formulated his thoughts, I agree that nobody-- man or woman -- should be expected to follow the orders of his or her spouse at all times. Which is what is happening here. You can phrase it as choice, but there are plenty of similar "choices" we have frowned upon -- the husband telling his wife she has to stay home or he'll divorce her, that she has to perform certain sex acts or he'll hit her, that she can't spend more than $100 a month or he'll take away her credit cards.
These are all choices. That doesn't make them right.
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