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THE EU, the US, IRAN, and the ARMS EMBARGO on CHINA

 
 
Foxfyre
 
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2005 04:31 pm
How firm is the alliance between the EU and the USA re the rest of the "Axis of Evil" and China?

Quote:
(at) Bush's State of the Union address on Wednesday night: He did indeed proclaim: "Today Iran remains the world's primary state sponsor of terror ?- pursuing nuclear weapons while depriving its people of the freedom they seek and deserve." He also asserted: "And to the Iranian people, I say tonight: as you stand for your own liberty, America stands with you." But between these two, widely reported, sentences he said firmly: "We are working with European allies to make clear to the Iranian regime that it must give up its uranium enrichment programme and any plutonium reprocessing, and end its support for terror." This is hardly unilateralism.


Behind the smiles
The EU, the US, Iran and the arms embargo on China

Condoleezza Rice, the new US Secretary of State, is a skilled diplomat and used that quality to good effect in London yesterday. She will, if possible, be as determined to be as pleasant at every stage of her whirlwind trip of continental Europe and the Middle East. Nor will this be a brief charge followed by a prolonged respite back in Washington. She has pledged that either herself or Robert Zoellick, an astute choice as Deputy Secretary of State, will visit every EU and Nato capital in the next few months. There were complaints that General Colin Powell disliked travelling during the first Bush Administration. The Rice-Zoellick team will have no difficulty accumulating air miles.
The issue that concerned many EU leaders before Dr Rice's arrival is how Washington intends to proceed towards Iran. To those given to selective interpretation, a US army march on Tehran is now inevitable. This implausible sentiment has been stoked by selective quotations from George W. Bush's State of the Union address on Wednesday night. He did indeed proclaim: "Today Iran remains the world's primary state sponsor of terror ?- pursuing nuclear weapons while depriving its people of the freedom they seek and deserve." He also asserted: "And to the Iranian people, I say tonight: as you stand for your own liberty, America stands with you." But between these two, widely reported, sentences he said firmly: "We are working with European allies to make clear to the Iranian regime that it must give up its uranium enrichment programme and any plutonium reprocessing, and end its support for terror." This is hardly unilateralism.

It is that approach which Dr Rice reaffirmed yesterday. She argued flatly that military intervention in Iran was "simply not on the agenda". She made it clear that the Bush Administration is willing to back the present efforts by Britain, France and Germany to persuade Iran to pull back from its nuclear ambitions and hoped that these will succeed. The White House and the State Department will, quite properly, want to be assured that the EU three has acquired cast-iron commitments from an unpredictable Iranian government. It is, though, nonsense to suggest that the US is about to launch a war and unfair to pretend that it is not in dialogue with EU political leaders. Whether listening works both ways is another matter. The EU is currently moving towards lifting the arms embargo imposed on China immediately after the Tiananmen Square massacre. It believes this move would help further to bring China into the global community, and recognise it does not harbour hostile intentions towards its neighbours; rather less piously, a number of large EU nations, notably France, have identified a lucrative export market for their weapons.

It is entirely possible that removing the arms embargo would have limited consequences. The issue is, nevertheless, viewed differently in Washington, not only by the Administration but Congress and not just by conservative Republicans but also liberal Democrats. The probably slim chance that US troops defending Taiwan might be attacked by an army which had acquired its arms from the EU fills policymakers in America with horror. It would be sensible for Europe, led by Britain, to recognise this fear and avoid a course which the US considers a threat to its security. If not, then Dr Rice's tours of Europe will be become rarer and less friendly.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,542-1471005,00.html
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 9,813 • Replies: 163
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2005 04:45 pm
The arms embargo on China was imposed EU in 1989 after troops opened fire on protestors in Tiananmen Square.

Since trhe UK (and here Foreign Secretary Straw) has been leading in lifting this ban, it's obvious that a paper like the Times makes this 'subject' the theme of a leading article.

"How firm is the alliance between the EU and the USA re the rest of the "Axis of Evil" and China" - I think, even a poodle doesn't follow always his master.

As seen in this example.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2005 06:48 pm
I wonder if the EU lifts the ban, if the European media will be as critical for it 'not working with others' at it has been to the U.S. for its 'unwillingness to work with the UN' etc.?
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Thomas Hayden
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 03:42 pm
Lift the arms embargo on China? The EU has proved to be an unreliable ally of the US(remember French behavior towards Iraq) I do not suggest they intentionally undermine US foreign policy. They basically have a wrong view on the issues of world stability. The problem is not the Chinese Human Rights record (which can be accurately described with one word: atrocious), but the geopolitical consequences of a full-equipped Chinese Army if internal conflicts arise in this country. In order to distract Chinese people and prevent violent uprisings, Communist despots are likely to engage in a series of military actions against little countries deemed to be part of a "Chinese Empire", such as Taiwan or Nepal. The dramatic repression we have witnessed in Tibet will begin again. Hard line army officers will take over the control of Chinese politics and will strengthen the current dictatorship.

By the contrary, if their military has operational problems, secession movements will almost certainly be able to face and defeat the oppressive regime of Beijing. The menace this government means for the free world can no longer be contained. As George Bush said in the inauguration speech it is time to aggressively promote democracy all over the world. In this struggle, China should be the main objective.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 04:01 pm
Thomas Hayden wrote:
The EU has proved to be an unreliable ally of the US(remember French behavior towards Iraq)


Just listing the current EU-member states within the Coalition troops:

- United Kingdom,
- Poland,
- Latvia,
- The Netherlands,
- Italy,
- Hungary,
- Slovakia,
- Lithuania,


Spain withdrew meanwhile its troops, so you may this behaviour unreliable. Then, however, you should include the other nations, who withdrew or will withdraw, as well.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 04:09 pm
But that wasn't the point I don't think Walter. The point is whether it is responsible for the EU to undertake the policy of fully arming a not-yet-democracy-friendly China..

Right now the United States is often accused of gunboat diplomacy by European doves, but the US stands as the world's sole superpower at this time, and nobody in Europe is the least concerned that the US will use that power toward them for imperialistic ends or any other ends.

Can we be anywhere near as confident that an expansionist minded Chinese superpower can be counted upon to exercise similar restraint?

And welcome Thomas H. Strap on your bullet proof vest and wade right on in.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 04:13 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
But that wasn't the point I don't think Walter.


I don't know, if this was the point or not - and actually, I didn't refer to that at all.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 04:20 pm
I know, Walter, but I think Thomas H. inserted that line strictly as emphasis for the point he was making. He wasn't making that the point. Smile
0 Replies
 
Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 05:33 pm
Thomas Hayden wrote:
Lift the arms embargo on China? The EU has proved to be an unreliable ally of the US(remember French behavior towards Iraq) I do not suggest they intentionally undermine US foreign policy. They basically have a wrong view on the issues of world stability. The problem is not the Chinese Human Rights record (which can be accurately described with one word: atrocious), but the geopolitical consequences of a full-equipped Chinese Army if internal conflicts arise in this country. In order to distract Chinese people and prevent violent uprisings, Communist despots are likely to engage in a series of military actions against little countries deemed to be part of a "Chinese Empire", such as Taiwan or Nepal. The dramatic repression we have witnessed in Tibet will begin again. Hard line army officers will take over the control of Chinese politics and will strengthen the current dictatorship.

By the contrary, if their military has operational problems, secession movements will almost certainly be able to face and defeat the oppressive regime of Beijing. The menace this government means for the free world can no longer be contained. As George Bush said in the inauguration speech it is time to aggressively promote democracy all over the world. In this struggle, China should be the main objective.


That's a rather simplistic view on the China situation. Yes, we may see conflict in Tiawan, but even that seems unlikely as long as China can sustain her economy. The current Chinese leadership does not consist of the belligerent "hard line army officers" you describe. Hu Jintao, Wen Jiabao, and rest of the standing committee are all deeply pragmatic and devoted exclusively to peaceful, stable, economic growth - they represent a sharp departure from party hardliners even a decade ago. Jiang also spent the entirety of his career focusing on economic stability, although he might be slightly more aggressive than the emerging leadership. Indeed, if you look at the current leadership style, you'll find that the likes of Zhao Ziyang won modern China, even if they lost Tiananmen. But even the hardliners of Tiananmen claimed their roots in the politics of Deng Xiaping, a pragmatist compared to the likes of Mao or other dangerous belligerents.

It makes little sense to try to prevent the rise of China through "containment." They bear no resemblance to historical powers that merited that strategy, such as the U.S.S.R or Iraq. Contrasting such threats, modern China has shown an acute desire to economically integrate themselves into the globalized world?-and our strategy should reflect that. Moreover, we cannot prevent China's rise without imposing enormous economic hardship on this country and the world. Our goal should therefore be to further China's integration. Wealth has historically been one of the greatest deterrents against war. No modern, economically integrated and healthy power has ever gone to war with its major trading partners. If we want to keep the Chinese pragmatists in power (rather than the hardliners), we'll work towards integration, not towards containment.

As a departing bit of anecdotal evidence, I've lived in China quite recently, and I can tell you this: the richer and more internationally integrated they get, the less interested they are in communism and war?-they want Prada, Gucci, McDonalds, Nike, Coke, etc. They're consumers and aspiring capitalists. This situation is more of an opportunity than a danger. Geopolitics is not a zero sum game, and we'll suffer needlessly if we treat it as such.
0 Replies
 
Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 05:42 pm
By the way, despite Bush's comments to the contrary, this administration's policies towards China have been exceptionally conciliatory--and rightly so. Bush and members of Congress occasionally vent some hot air to humor conflictophiles, but Bush is as Sino-friendly as any president in recent memory.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 09:36 pm
He better be with a huge chunk of U.S. industry based there these days.

Seriously though I bow to your superior expertise on this one Steppenwolf and admit my own knowledge lacking in what modern China is like.

How long were you in China and how was it that you came to be living there? Are you Chinese or of Chinese heritage?
0 Replies
 
Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 10:36 pm
I was there for only about 7 months as a student. The country is fascinating; I'd suggest it to anyone. It's totally different depending on where you are, both in terms of culture and topography.

I'm not of Chinese heritage, but actually, that might have made the experience better. If you're a white American, you're likely to be treated very well and invited to random strangers' houses for dinner, particularly outside of metropolitan areas. Most of the Chinese are fascinated by Americans, and very friendly. They also absolutely love it when you try to speak Chinese (even if you're very bad at it). If you're of Chinese heritage (I had some Chinese friends with me), they expect you to speak fluent Chinese, even if you're a Chinese American. They're likely to insult you if you don't.
0 Replies
 
bayinghound
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 08:48 am
Steppenwolf wrote:
The current Chinese leadership does not consist of the belligerent "hard line army officers" you describe. Hu Jintao, Wen Jiabao, and rest of the standing committee are all deeply pragmatic and devoted exclusively to peaceful, stable, economic growth - they represent a sharp departure from party hardliners even a decade ago.


Though I think you are right to say that the current standing committee represent a departure from the hardliners of yesteryear, I do not think you can justly describe the policy of Red China towards Xinjiang, Tibet, or even Taiwan as one being "devoted exclusively to peaceful, stable, economic growth."

There has been a bit of a thaw in Formosa Strait relations recently, but that comes after another round of rather alarming sabre rattling.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 10:35 am
That's the question isn't it Bhound? How peaceful would a fully armed China be compared to the one that knows at this time the USA has the capability to pretty well flatten it and who is committed to the defense of Taiwan? China has us seriously outnumbered, so the only advantage we have is a superior strike force sans ground troops.

China (and everybody else) however knows we won't attack anybody without serious provocation. And as Steppenwolf pointed out, it is to our definite economic advantage to be friends.
0 Replies
 
Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 10:42 am
bayinghound wrote:
Steppenwolf wrote:
The current Chinese leadership does not consist of the belligerent "hard line army officers" you describe. Hu Jintao, Wen Jiabao, and rest of the standing committee are all deeply pragmatic and devoted exclusively to peaceful, stable, economic growth - they represent a sharp departure from party hardliners even a decade ago.


Though I think you are right to say that the current standing committee represent a departure from the hardliners of yesteryear, I do not think you can justly describe the policy of Red China towards Xinjiang, Tibet, or even Taiwan as one being "devoted exclusively to peaceful, stable, economic growth."

There has been a bit of a thaw in Formosa Strait relations recently, but that comes after another round of rather alarming sabre rattling.


I certainly can't justify Tibet or Xinjiang, but those areas were annexed years ago. It's politically unfeasable for the modern leadership to let those regions go, even if they wanted to; it would only open the door for nationalist hardliners. Imagine if, for instance, Adams decided to give most of the U.S. back to Native Americans. As far as Taiwan is concerned, that's the last potential area for Chinese expansion. It's a problem area, surely, and I agree that there has been considerable saber rattling of late. But that's as far as it's likely to go absent a major political upheaval on the mainland. In any event, we needn't worry about an expansionist-minded China beyond Taiwan.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 10:45 am
I am against lifting the arms embargo on China.

(Actually, this is just my way of bookmarking. But I am.)
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 11:09 am
I'm against that as well - I wonder, however, why the US undecided on UN resolution covering China's human rights record, many Western governments have urged China to show improvement and openness.

US says no decision yet on China resolution at UN human rights meeting






Oh, yes, now I see it: if the Europeans don't end the arms embargo, then the USA will be pro human rights in China.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 06:35 pm
Despite its reputation, I think the US government doesn't officially meddle in a lot of human rights issues in other countries. There are simply too many in too many places to deal with them all. (I know, that doesn't excuse doing what we can but we kind of are taking care of one problem in Iraq.)

US citizens on the other hand often organize to protest both questionable human rights practices by American corporations overseas and practices by the countries themselves. South Africa's apartheid was a prime U.S. citizen target.

So if both Nimh and Walter are opposed to rearming a somewhat-less-than-democratic China, what rationale is EU using to promote that?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 06:39 pm
Dunno. Money, probably.
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Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2005 06:45 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

So if both Nimh and Walter are opposed to rearming a somewhat-less-than-democratic China, what rationale is EU using to promote that?


A diplomatic gesture? I read a statement by Jack Straw about how the embargo sent the wrong message to China by putting them in the same category as Burma and Zimbabwe. I believe that the end goal here is to encourage Chinese integration (that's an optomistic take, anyway).

Behind the scenes, I wonder if the EU is hoping to foster a multi-polar world by adding another major player.
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