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THE EU, the US, IRAN, and the ARMS EMBARGO on CHINA

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 12:26 pm
Then what is that document accessed through the link JW posted?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 12:44 pm
Look it up here:

Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 12:49 pm
Thanks OE, but I don't think that answered my question.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 12:49 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Then what is that document accessed through the link JW posted?


(About) The same as old europe's link.

And exactly this link by JW says, the Preambel is from page 11 to page 13. And exactly that's why I mentioned it.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 12:52 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Thanks OE, but I don't think that answered my question.


JW was using a BBC link (to a shortened, "nice to read" version ["consolidated"] from the EU website, as of June 2004), old europe offered the official version "Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe Official Journal C 310 of 16 December 2004"
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:08 pm
JustWonders wrote:
I hear you, Fox. The Preamble alone is like 17 pages or so. Too much. I wonder how many Europeans have read it. I may get back to it some day, though. Or not.


As not everybody might have installed the PDF-Reader and we're talking about it:

Quote:
PREAMBLE

HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE CZECH REPUBLIC, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF DENMARK, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF ESTONIA, THE PRESIDENT OF THE HELLENIC REPUBLIC, HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF SPAIN, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF IRELAND, THE PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF LATVIA, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF LITHUANIA, HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUKE OF LUXEMBOURG, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF HUNGARY, THE PRESIDENT OF MALTA, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS, THE FEDERAL PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF AUSTRIA, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF POLAND, THE PRESIDENT OF THE PORTUGUESE REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SLOVENIA, THE PRESIDENT OF THE SLOVAK REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF FINLAND, THE GOVERNMENT OF THE KINGDOM OF SWEDEN, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND,

DRAWING INSPIRATION from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person, freedom, democracy, equality and the rule of law,

BELIEVING that Europe, reunited after bitter experiences, intends to continue along the path of civilisation, progress and prosperity, for the good of all its inhabitants, including the weakest and most deprived; that it wishes to remain a continent open to culture, learning and social progress; and that it wishes to deepen the democratic and transparent nature of its public life, and to strive for peace, justice and solidarity throughout the world,

CONVINCED that, while remaining proud of their own national identities and history, the peoples of Europe are determined to transcend their former divisions and, united ever more closely, to forge a common destiny,

CONVINCED that, thus ?'United in diversity', Europe offers them the best chance of pursuing, with due regard for the rights of each individual and in awareness of their responsibilities towards future generations and the Earth, the great venture which makes of it a special area of human hope,

DETERMINED to continue the work accomplished within the framework of the Treaties establishing the European Communities and the Treaty on European Union, by ensuring the continuity of the Community acquis,

GRATEFUL to the members of the European Convention for having prepared the draft of this Constitution on behalf of the citizens and States of Europe,

HAVE DESIGNATED AS THEIR PLENIPOTENTIARIES:


followed by the names/signatures of the members.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:14 pm
Walter's right. In Old Europe's link, if you click on "Preamble", it's 8 pages - but mostly names of the "designates" of the member states. I still think I have a site stashed somewhere on here where the Table of Contents shows it to be 17 pages LOL.

I guess size matters. Depending on which website you choose, the entire document is still hundreds of pages.

Walter & Old - have you each read the whole thing?

Just curious.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:19 pm
Nope, not yet. Want to have by the time our parliament is going to ratify it, though.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:20 pm
Oh, that reminds me....'sup with that "bitter experiences" sentence?

Which bitter experiences?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:20 pm
Even though it's as good a read as the Patriot Act, I'd say.
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:20 pm
JW- Have you read the whole constitution of the United States?

Just curious.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:21 pm
Old...you can't vote on it? How many member states can, do you know?

Seems like I read nine or so. I have been known to be wrong on numbers lately, though. LOL.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:23 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Oh, that reminds me....'sup with that "bitter experiences" sentence?

Which bitter experiences?


Your talking about the

Quote:
Europe, reunited after bitter experiences


part? Hm.... Let me see... WWI, WWII, the Cold War.... I don't think it refers to the Iraq War, JW :wink:
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:24 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Old...you can't vote on it? How many member states can, do you know?

Seems like I read nine or so. I have been known to be wrong on numbers lately, though. LOL.


10, JW. Can you vote on amendments to the constitution?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:28 pm
I can't speak for JW as I don't know how old she is or what her education background is. Not only was I required to read the entire Constitution both in Hishschool and College, but was required to pass a pretty intense test on the contents of same.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 01:37 pm
Well, we do our constitution at university - the courses are called "Constitutional Right", and lawyers later can do special courses where they qualify as specialists in constitutional law.
[I did such when studying law as well as when studying social work.
(Because I was used to such, I did constitutiuonal history courses in history as well :wink: ]


We live a parliamentary republic/democracy. Thus, voting on the constitution is done there, namely in both chambers of the parliament.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 02:10 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Not only was I required to read the entire Constitution both in Hishschool and College, but was required to pass a pretty intense test on the contents of same.


Hmmmm.... When you say 'Constitution', are talking about the constitution from 1776? Would you have to learn about it in history classes?
I'm really just curious! I admire the fact the you can look back on that history of almost 230 years....

We were required to read our 'Basic Law' in school. In Germany we don't have a constitution, because after '45 it was believed that the Federal Republic without the eastern part of Germany couldn't have a constitution, as the reunification was the proclaimed goal of the government. Writing a constitution was therefore seen as accepting the existence of a divided Germany.
After '89 there was a brief discussion whether or not the Basic Law should henceforth be called our constitution... But I guess people were just so used to refering to it as the Basic Law that nobody seriously bothered.

You can find the Basic Law here, it's 34 pages - and yes, we to pass a pretty intense test on it, too.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 02:15 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, we do our constitution at university - the courses are called "Constitutional Right", and lawyers later can do special courses where they qualify as specialists in constitutional law.


Most definitely, having to take courses in "Constitutional Right" at uni is quite different from learning about the Basic Law at school.
Nevertheless it's not like you would never ever have to learn about it until you decided to become a lawyer.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 02:25 pm
Well, of course even even at that time, when I was at school, we learnt about it there - hell, I'm a member of the generation, who wandered around only with the Basic Law under the arm! (Under the other one the Moa bible) Laughing
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 02:27 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, of course even even at that time, when I was at school, we learnt about it there - hell, I'm a member of the generation, who wandered around only with the Basic Law under the arm! (Under the other one the Moa bible) Laughing


Yeah! The good ol' times, those were Very Happy
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