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THE EU, the US, IRAN, and the ARMS EMBARGO on CHINA

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 02:42 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Walter - read the title of the article again. If you see it as strictly UK politics, fine. The diplomatic immunity referenced clearly states it is extended to commisioners of the EU.


From the Bill:

Quote:
Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe
Commonwealth Secretariat
International Tribunal on the Law of the Sea
International Criminal Court
European Court of Human Rights
EU Bodies created in the pursuit of a Common Foreign and Security Policy and Police and Judicial Co-operation in Criminal Matters.


The only EU bodies are mentioned in the last sentence.

Besides: it is an UK bill, which might become a UK law.
Related are only British citizens, mainly (if not exclusively) on duty for the FCO.

If you think, this is something else than UK policy, would you please explain?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2005 02:55 pm
JustWonders wrote:
The diplomatic immunity referenced clearly states it is extended to commisioners of the EU.



The EU commissioners can't get diplomatic immunity just from the UK.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 02:33 am
As far as I was informed by telephone this morning, Peter Mandelson, European commissioner for external trade, has got the right to use a UK diplomacy passport.

Interesting interview with him here, btw.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 08:22 pm
Wow. And this is from WaPo!!!
_______________________________________________________________

Feeding the Dragon, Hurting the Alliance

Why is Europe Eager to Sell Arms to China?

By Daniel Blumenthal and Thomas Donnelly
Sunday, February 20, 2005; Page B05

The journey to Brussels and beyond that President Bush embarks on today promises to extend the happy-talk between America and Europe begun earlier this month by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Stand by for further affirmation of shared values and common interests. But don't be surprised if the moment doesn't last.

The European Union is on the verge of lifting the arms embargo it imposed on the People's Republic of China following the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre. If the E.U. carries out this threat -?- and make no mistake, this would be a genuinely hostile act against the United States -- the transatlantic tiffs of recent years could come to seem minor, and Bush could be saying a final farewell to old allies rather than renewing strategic bonds.

Over the past 18 months, Europeans have been asserting that the embargo, as French President Jacques Chirac told Chinese leader Hu Jintao during the latter's visit to Paris early last year, "no longer makes any sense." On a return visit to Beijing last October, Chirac went further, declaring that denying China advanced arms was "motivated purely and simply by hostility." German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder chimed in recently, telling Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao -- as the two signed another set of business deals -- that he, too, favored lifting the embargo.

Even British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw argues that it's unfair to ban arms sales to Beijing as long as there's no embargo against trading with nuclear-armed North Korea. But rather than close the loophole against Pyongyang, Prime Minister Tony Blair's government is instead pushing to have the China embargo lifted before Britain takes over the E.U. presidency in July. Apparently, there's still enough shame left among the British that they'd prefer to have the continentals handle this dirty business.

But if the E.U. resumes trading arms to China, it will, in effect, become a full partner in the modernization of the People's Liberation Army, already the most destabilizing trend in East Asia. By developing a large and growing fleet of ballistic and cruise missiles and submarines and acquiring Russian attack aircraft and destroyers, Beijing, with no external threat to its own security, is driving a new and extremely dangerous arms race in the Pacific.

The missing pieces of the PLA puzzle are exactly the sorts of command and control, communications, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance systems that the Europeans are getting ready to sell. These are the same technologies that make the U.S. military so effective, having been developed initially for NATO operations. Lifting the embargo would thus mean that, in a future flare-up with Beijing such as the cross-straits crisis over Taiwan in 1996 or China's 2001 downing of an American EP-3 surveillance aircraft, U.S. soldiers would find themselves going up against an adversary armed with NATO technology.

The immediate objective of the PLA's modernization effort is the subjugation, either by intimidation or direct military action, of Taiwan. But the larger target is the United States and its position as the guarantor of freedom and stability in the region -- what the Chinese government calls American "hegemony." Beijing wants to develop the military capacity to deter the United States and its regional allies from acting in Asia. Lifting the embargo will go a long way toward helping the Chinese reach that goal.

It's hard to know at this point whether the Europeans are acting like fools or knaves in this drama. Chirac makes no secret of his dream of an E.U. that acts as a "counterweight" to American hyperpower, and he's often able to convince Schroeder that what's good for France is also good for Germany. On its own, Europe can do very little to balance the United States, as the experience of Iraq suggests, but it can accelerate the pace at which China may emerge to play that role.

Europe's moribund defense industries desperately crave Chinese contracts. The continent's own anemic national procurement programs are incapable of generating enough business to keep its arms-makers afloat, and new weapons sales in the Middle East are either hard to come by or snatched up by U.S. companies. Sales to China have sustained the rump of Russia's defense industrial base, and, Europeans figure, might do the same for their own heavily subsidized defense contractors. There's also the related matter of commercial airline sales to consider, as China cleverly plays America's Boeing off against Europe's Airbus in the battle to supply Beijing's burgeoning air travel needs.

But in preparing to lift the embargo, the Europeans are failing to take into account the potential blowback from the United States. Their myopia is understandable, given that the White House has said little about the consequences of arms sales to Beijing -- Rice was certainly in no mood for confrontation during her recent trip. Not to mention that the Bush administration has made plenty of sunny pronouncements about the overall state of Sino-American relations; last November, then Secretary of State Colin Powell called them "the best in 30 years."

In their haste to sell weapons to Beijing, however, the Europeans have inadvertently kick-started the debate in Washington about China's intentions. The truth is that beneath the rosy rhetoric there remains a great deal of tension. Washington is suspicious of Beijing's military buildup, unhappy with its weapons sales to places like Pakistan and Sudan, increasingly dissatisfied with its diplomacy toward North Korea and concerned about its human rights abuses. All these worries were subordinated as long as attention was focused on Iraq and the war on terrorism -?- until the E.U. threatened to act.

Already, talk of a "China threat" is reemerging in the corridors of Congress, the Pentagon and inside the Bush administration. Testifying before Congress last week, the chiefs of both the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency issued warnings about Beijing's growing militarization and what the DIA head called its "more assertive policies, especially with respect to Taiwan." Despite a decade of engagement, China's leadership is no more democratic today than it was after Tiananmen.

In the short term, ending the ban on trading arms to China is almost certain to undermine what transatlantic defense cooperation remains after the Cold War -- and there's still quite a bit of it. The United States would have no choice but to assume that technology transfers to Europe would be likely to end up in Chinese hands. This should especially concern the British government, which has invested more than $2 billion in the $200-billion-plus Joint Strike Fighter program.

The long-term geostrategic implications are even more profound. European weapons in the hands of the PLA would help tip the balance in the Taiwan Strait against Taipei and pour fuel on smoldering Sino-Japanese relations. It's ironic that a Europe that takes pride in having extracted itself from centuries of great power rivalries could now exacerbate precisely such tensions in the Pacific.

There is still time for sanity to prevail. President Bush has an opportunity this week to speak frankly about the costs and consequences of lifting the embargo. He should propose a U.S.-E.U. strategic dialogue to keep an eye on China's threat to regional security and its human rights and proliferation records. Europe, in turn, would postpone its decision on the embargo as leaders from both sides work together to grapple with China's rise. Opening such a dialogue will help preserve a translatlantic relationship based, as Rice put it, on the "values that unite us."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A37089-2005Feb19?language=printer

If the Euros pull this off, I can't imagine it not ticking off the Russians in a major way.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 08:35 pm
and you know what's really scary JW, the French/German (even the Brits) and others really like their governments. They even like big governments that have a social agenda as well as an economic one. These are some pretty scary times and we must, I say we MUST alienate ourselves from these people, the next thing you know they will be advocating some weird kind of democracy where the government acts in accord with the wishes of the citizens. Could anything be more dangerous to the US? I think not.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 10:54 pm
Dys - I don't know what the French/German/Brits liking their governments has to do with the embargo being lifted. Have you read the EU Constitution? I know you've read our Constitution.

Should we compare the two? Probably not. There is no comparison. Ours starts "We the people". The EU Constitution starts "His Majesty, the King of the Belgians".

If any comparisons were to be made, probably the best option would be to compare the EU Constitution to the treaties that it's replacing. I admit I'm not as prepared to do that as some of our European members would be. Are you?

Is the Commission elected? Will the people of Germany (who I know must love their country and their government) be able to vote for ratification of this new EU Constitution?

Would you be comfortable surrendering to an unelected bureaucracy of elites?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 11:28 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Have you read the EU Constitution? I know you've read our Constitution.

Should we compare the two? Probably not. There is no comparison. Ours starts "We the people". The EU Constitution starts "His Majesty, the King of the Belgians". ?


but then, yours is signed by the deputies from only 12 States Very Happy
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 11:31 pm
JustWonders wrote:
If any comparisons were to be made, probably the best option would be to compare the EU Constitution to the treaties that it's replacing. I admit I'm not as prepared to do that as some of our European members would be. Are you?


Quote:
Through discussion and debate it became clear by mid-June that, rather than amend the existing Articles, the Convention would draft an entirely new frame of government.


link
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 12:48 am
JustWonders wrote:
Is the Commission elected? Will the people of Germany (who I know must love their country and their government) be able to vote for ratification of this new EU Constitution?


You see, this is the often quoted difference between political systems.

We here in Germany, e.g. don't elect neither our chancellor (that's done by the parliament) nor the president (that's done by a a kind of electional committee).

We don't influence new articles to our constitution (Basic Law) neither.

And all that is regulated in our Basic Law (constitution).
(As well as the facts when there are to be hold plebiscites and referendums - this in state constitutions as well.)
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 12:53 am
JustWonders wrote:
The EU Constitution starts "His Majesty, the King of the Belgians".
... and than adds all the other head of state.

I'm glad it does. Shows, they knew the alhabetical order.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 05:29 am
old Europe writes
Quote:
but then, yours is signed by the deputies from only 12 States


But ratified by all then and susequently and sworn to by all who wish to be citizens of the United States. It is a document so designed that as much as possible the government cannot govern without the advice and consent of the governed. The benefits to member states are profound.

I don't know enough about the constiutions of individual European states to know how much they might be comparable, but I haven't seen a lot of evidence that the EU has been profoundly beneficial for its members to date. Does anyone see the possibility of a United States of Europe? As a student of history, I can't imagine that, but hey, who knows. I'm not over there and don't see it up close and personal. Some of you are.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 10:18 am
Very Happy

I know Foxfyre!! But JW was kind of comparing the US and the EU constitution (even though he said he didn't) by picking out a random part (the EU constitution actually starts with: "16.12.2004").
So did I. I think, it takes more depth than that, as we can see....

But you say that

Quote:
I haven't seen a lot of evidence that the EU has been profoundly beneficial for its members to date.


I guess this depends on how you define "beneficial". Let's not forget that the idea of a Union was to strengthen international relationships and prevent wars between nations that had been at war with each other for centuries. Between 1870 and 1945, France and Germany fought each other three times. Since then, 0 times.

I would probably call this "profoundly beneficial".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 10:47 am
Foxfyre wrote:
but I haven't seen a lot of evidence that the EU has been profoundly beneficial for its members to date.


From the original start with 6 members, the EU until now has got 25 member states, four more on the actual "waiting list".
Those might think different to you.

Definately, Europe more became more secure, more properous and last not least more effective than if every single country had acted on its own.

A single market, no borders and a single currency is benifical for every citizen, I think - just to name these three more 'practical' things.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 10:51 am
Foxy - you can read it here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/21_07_04cg00086.en04.pdf

Got insomnia? This will cure it LOL.

Kinda like reading the US Tax Code. Smile

What you find may surprise you. I'm not totally through it all, but really, it's just amazing.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 10:59 am
Perhaps - and before you die by laughing - you should remember the purpose of this so-called EU-constitution:

the constitution is actually a "constitutional treaty", and will replace earlier EU treaties.
It is a single document saying what the EU can and cannot do.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 11:03 am
Yeah. I'd never have called it a "Constitution".
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 11:12 am
Well, in the 'legal language' it certainly is one :wink:
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 11:18 am
Oh lordy JW, I'll wait for another time to plow through the document itself. And I did plead ignorance of first hand knowledge, guys, and I am glad the EU 'treaty' is working out well for you. Over here the news seems to depict a Europe that is sort of uniformly gray and drab, slowly being dragged down by unsustainable social entitlements with ever lower productivity and higher unemployment. And this is from a leftwing media that just as often compares U.S. policies unfavorably with those of Europe.

But then, I would be the first to say you can't believe much of what you read in the newspapers. Smile
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 12:04 pm
I hear you, Fox. The Preamble alone is like 17 pages or so. Too much. I wonder how many Europeans have read it. I may get back to it some day, though. Or not.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2005 12:22 pm
JustWonders wrote:
I hear you, Fox. The Preamble alone is like 17 pages or so. .


I don't know what text you looked at, but it surely wasn't the official.

The preambel is just two sites, the first only containing the titles of the different head of states.
0 Replies
 
 

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