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DL...just curious. Did the Australian version of 60 Minutes really pay Habib $100K (I also read a report it was $200K) for his story?

Do they routinely pay for interviews, do you know?

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Here's your chance to do some reporting, JW. Check your source's credibility/objectivity. Seek verification and check credibility of that new source. Maybe check a third. Note contrary claims where they appear. Then find and check the ethics codes of that program and see if there is a violation. Check the ethics codes of comparable programs for perspective. Check for precedent cases with this program and others. Report your findings to us. Add your thoughtful commentary in addition, if you choose.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I did not see her article at all the way you did Nimh. I did not see her focus in any way on race but on cultures and how civilzation got from Point A to Point B.

Yet it is races

Foxfyre wrote:

And yes, the fact that Coombs is not "PC" in her article and neither is she critical of or supportive of any paricular people based on race considerations

"Neither is she critical of or supportive of any paricular people based on race considerations"? So why is it so vital, according to her, for the West to "weaponize population growth" now that "the races" of the world are locked in a new population race?

She describes the non-Western races as "masses of hapless childlike asylum-seekers, economic and political and social refugees, immigrants legal and illegal, as well as entire hapless childlike nations that have not yet physically landed on our shores with hands outstretched." Not critical? It is only "the European, Canadian, Australian and American men" she holds up as positive exception, describing them as constituting "a Head Start program for the entire planet", as the people who "made the world infinitely better" - note, not the Japanese inventors or the Latin-American writers or the Indian filmmakers or whatever, just Canadian, Australian and American men. What in heavens name have Canadian or Australian men (sorry, deb, sorry Blatham) done more for the world than the Japanese? But on the other hand, whats the only thing they've all got in common?

What do you believe was the attraction of Coombs' article to the Stormfront website ("White Pride / World Wide") that posted it?

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Well, Stormfronters are refreshingly unPC.

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blatham wrote:

Here's your chance to do some reporting, JW. Check your source's credibility/objectivity. Seek verification and check credibility of that new source. Maybe check a third. Note contrary claims where they appear. Then find and check the ethics codes of that program and see if there is a violation. Check the ethics codes of comparable programs for perspective. Check for precedent cases with this program and others. Report your findings to us. Add your thoughtful commentary in addition, if you choose.

Easier to just ask DL. I did check a source with 60 Minutes/CBS/USA which stated they "never pay for interviews", but then, that's C-BS (rascally bunch, dontcha think?)

Speaking of ethics, I was wondering if we could just limit the discourse here to the subjects of discussion and leave the personal remarks directed to the posters out altogether. Would that be reasonable? Add your thoughtful commentary, if you choose.

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Nimh she speaks of races yes. But to speak of races in a truthful way is not the same as being racist. One can note that it was a black man or an Aisan woman or a polka dot dwaft who robbed the liquor store without it bieng racist. And one can tell the truth about people of race in various places without being racist. It isn't PC. And some equate un-PC with the same thing as being racist. I don't. That's why you and I see it differently. I'm not a PC person. I think it's okay to tell things the way they actually are, not waht the PC police deem appropriate.

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JustWonders wrote:

DL...just curious. Did the Australian version of 60 Minutes really pay Habib $100K (I also read a report it was $200K) for his story?

Do they routinely pay for interviews, do you know?

They paid - don't know how much.

I seldom watch - but I think they do pay sometimes - I have no idea how often.

They're on the Murdoch station.

I would have watched - though I am generally unimpressed with their tabloid style, and with payment of subjects - because it is an interesting story. But - I was out last night.

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What's a journalist? Someone who reports what happened.
That's all. Just someone who reports the facts of the events of the day.
Seems a little odd in today's world. I confess.

This is all my fault. We had reporters and editors in the newsroom at Channel Eight. Reporters went out each day in their cars and trucks with cameramen and shot news stories. Sometimes we let them use the station's production van, but only if there was an on-going story. The editors, two of them for the 5:00pm slot and one for the ten, would go over the stories and pick (edit) the best of the lot based on newsworthiness and visuals, though, depending on the editor, it might be based on visuals and newsworthiness. On camera witnessess were always welcome, talking heads were not. Our senior editor hated stand-ups and always demanded good cover shots to keep us from broadcasting pictures of a woman in a baseball hat talking next to a street.

The stories, this is how old I am, were shot on film, run through a processor and edited into A/B rolls while the reporters went through their notes and wrote up the story. There was no live feed to the scene of the accident. An on-camera person might take an on-air phone call from a reporter, but that was rare indeed. It was lead-in to the story, run the story, then lead the next story. The reporters had already gone home by the time their story aired.

Then they asked me if I would look into a new thing called video tape because I had already worked a lot with audio tape. I know. I thought it was a bad reason too.

Anyway, to make a long story short which is the object of a television news story, I said we should go for it in a big way including getting the remote broadcasting antennas for the production truck. Less than a year later we were almost completely live for the whole hour of news. We showed a lot of pictures of reporters standing by the side of parking lots and roadways and -here's what I'm getting at- no one ever got much time to write their story. So we got live stories but a lot of them were guesswork and prognostication, good guesses most of the time, but there was a lot of stuff going on the air quickly.

That's when they decided they needed a news analysist, someone to explain what was going on, someone with opinions, a pundit and they asked me if I thought that was a good idea and I said "Sure." And that was the end of any semblance of reporting without opinion in tv news.

Because it wasn't very long after that that the reporters started thinking they had to help with the analysis part instead of just telling what happened.

So I'm sorry that you won't ever see a news story which is just a report of the facts of the event because they still think that might be boring and you won't buy any cars or paint from the sponsor. And if you turn off the sound and just watch the pictures that won't help either though the baseball hat the reporter is wearing while standing next to the road is fetching.

Joe(We turn now to Ed who will tell us why it is so fetching. Ed?)Nation

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Well said, Joe.

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That is fascinating Joe - was it in this thread I talked about the award winning Australian team in Iraq - who left their cameras behind for a brief trip - and didn't get back to them for a few weeks? (The war picked them up and ran off with them)

They said that, not having the demands of dumb live stuff every for every night's news, their ability to research and really report was untrammelled.

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But Joe, as some on this thread have pointed out, all journalists have codes and ETHICS to go by dontcha know? I was taught those same ethics, but like you, I know how fuzzy they are when you're pushing a deadline or trying to scoop Channel 10. For myself, on a Monday I had the misfortune to be first on the scene of a pedestrian death and was ordered by the city desk to get a quote from the grieving parents of the child who was killed. At the scene. "How do you feel Mr. and Mrs.......?"

On Tuesday, I was ordered to contribute on a breaking story about a scandal involving the local school superintendent. No charges had been filed. On threat of firing I dragged my feet. Turned out the guy was innocent of all allegations. I was called on the carpet anyway. I quit and went to work for organizations for which I could just report and was not required to hurt people.

You can have a thousand codes of ethics and they don't mean a thing when they are winked at under pressure.

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The best managing editor I ever worked for though was Tony Hillerman at the Santa Fe New Mexican. Have you guys read any of his books? They're awesome.

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Foxfyre wrote:

. For myself, on a Monday I had the misfortune to be first on the scene of a pedestrian death and was ordered by the city desk to get a quote from the grieving parents of the child who was killed. At the scene. "How do you feel Mr. and Mrs.......?"

On Tuesday, I was ordered to contribute on a breaking story about a scandal involving the local school superintendent. No charges had been filed. On threat of firing I dragged my feet. Turned out the guy was innocent of all allegations. I was called on the carpet anyway. I quit and went to work for organizations for which I could just report and was not required to hurt people.

You can have a thousand codes of ethics and they don't mean a thing when they are winked at under pressure.

I commend you for dumping Fox and moving on to saner news sources, Foxfyre. Why do you still defend them? Smile

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JustWonders wrote:

Speaking of ethics, I was wondering if we could just limit the discourse here to the subjects of discussion and leave the personal remarks directed to the posters out altogether. Would that be reasonable? Add your thoughtful commentary, if you choose.

Blatham is obviously just sort of peeved at the incredible inconsistencies. He'll likely issue an apology when he gets his knickers and tunic the right way round. Smile

But the inconsistencies are astounding, JW and Ms Fyre [to distinguish you from that other Fox, you know, Faux].

Where is the proof that Mr Jordan lied? Where is the proof "that is available on the Net" that the "senior editor" got his/her facts right?

JW dithers on about Rather, but Fox's lead guy, O'Rielly, gets a cutesy little pass. Confused

We can dig and dig and lay out a wide assortment of factual material here for you, and all you two can do is hint that some info might/may/probably/does exist[s] somewhere.

This is just too Foxy; 'Foxy' in the pejorative sense pointing to, well, you know the other Faux.

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Over 20 years ago, an ex-Eagle wrote:

I make my living off the evening news
Just give me something that I can use
People love it when you lose
They love dirty laundry

Well I could have been an actor
But I wound up here
I just have to look good
I don't have to be clear
Come and whisper in my ear
We need dirty laundry

Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em all around

We got the bubble-headed bleach blonde
Comes on at five
She can tell ya 'bout the plane crash
With a gleam in her eye
It's int'resting when people die
Give us dirty laundry

Can we film the operation
Is the head dead yet
Y'know the boys in the newsroom
Got a running bet
Get the widow on the set
We need dirty laundry

You don't really need to find out
What's going on
You don't want to know just
How far it's gone
Just leave well enough alone
Keep your dirty laundry

Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em where they sit
Kick 'em all around

Dirty little secrets
Dirty little lies
We got our dirty little fingers
In ev'rybody's pies
We love to cut you down to size
We love dirty laundry

We can do the innuendo
We can dance and sing
When it's said and done we haven't
Told you a thing
We all know that crap is king
Give us dirty laundry

Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em all around

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I think we see a little light going here, it exposes and informs.

Foxfyre wrote in part:

Quote:

Expanding on that definition (and from my days at journalism school) a journalist would be any person who writes for a medium in the business of informing or persuading others, most especially large numbers of others.

emphasis mine.

There is no or about it, nor is news persuasion.

That business is public relations or infotainment and is about shaping opinions. Shaping opinions is not news and the people who do it are not reporters. They are shills. What a shill does is tell you what you already think is true is true. It's a form of flattery that is as false as me saying "I will still respect you in the morning." So the next time you hear someone who is posing as a reporter say something beyond the facts at hand, especially something that you completely agree with, ask yourself "What is this guy/gal selling?" and go off in search of a journalist.

Joe(telling the facts since, oh shucks, for over a hour now.)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

that is as false as me saying "I will still respect you in the morning."

Joe(telling the facts since, oh shucks, for over a hour now.)Nation

That may be false for you Joe, but I mean it when I say it!

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We all mean it when we say it.

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Hmmm - I was curious when Fox had no problem with 't'other Fox having an editorial policy to support the administration and the war.

I can imagine that as defensible when a country is fighting for its life - otherwise - news businesses have no business supporting or NOT supporting.

They have a business to report facts as well as they are able - editorialising is for the editorial columns - or clearly delineated shows.

Of course, every editorial decision IS a decision with the potential to support/not support.

I know SOME on the right will continue to see all outlets EXCEPT Fox as biased towards the (faintly - this is the USA) left, and Fox as unbiased - but if that is one's judgement, I think it such a foolish one as to merit no attention.

At least outlets like the NYT had the gonads to apologize for not subjecting the administration's (at best interpretation) extraordinary disregard for evidence counter to its desires to more rigorous challenge.

Fox should crawl on its belly to Canterbury as penance.

I also note that other places found guilty of shoddy journalism have had people fall on their swords. Waiting.....

Fox - some of us DO understand the exigencies of the journo's life - not as well as one who has lived it, of course. But we are speaking of huge networks able to influence opinion widely - and rich beyond belief, not little city dailies (though they should be observing ethics too - and not treating you like that).

These folk have the money and ability to do the job well.

Cheap scandal rags, like most of Murdoch's stable - well, people know what they are getting.

I return again and again to its claim that Fox is fair and balanced.

Laughing

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An apology will not be forthcoming.

Roger Ailes, President, CEO, and Chairman of the Board at Fox News...

Quote:

Roger Eugene Ailes founded Ailes Communications in New York which he owned between 1970 and 1992 which is described in his biographical note accompanying tesimony to the Energy and Commerce Committee as "a diversified communications consulting company whose clients included three U.S. Presidents, several senators and governors, as well as Fortune 500 CEO's". [1] (http://energycommerce.house.gov/107/hearings/02142001Hearing216/Ailes320.htm)

Ailes political work has included:

working as a media adviser to Richard M. Nixon Presidential Campaign in 1967-68;
working as a consultant in 1984 to Ronald Reagan; and
working on George H. W. Bush's 1988 Presidential campaign;
When a coalition of tobacco control groups, Coalition for a Healthy California promoted Proposition 99 which proposed a 25 cents a pack increase in tobacco tax, Ailes was called on in July 1988 to oversee what was to be a $20 million campaign for the tobacco industry.

Californians Against Unfair Tax Increases (CAUTI) was overwhelmingly underwritten by Philip Morris and RJ Reynolds. [2] (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/xjz54c00)

The tobacco industry strategy was to promote its claims that the tax increase was unfair and unnecessary government interference, that rich doctors would be the beneficiaries and that high taxes would encourage increased smuggling and place additional demands on police.

Ailes Communications earned just over $1,000,000 in commission on the campaign. [3] (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/ofx44d00)

Despite Ailes best efforts, the tobacco industry was defeated. "Although we were not successful, the CAUTI campaign moved an extremely large number of voters to our position. While some television spots were more persuasive than others, the campaign never appeared to make much headway with the large number of people who are extremely anti-smoking," Ailes Communications final report stated. [4] (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/sqr86d00)

In the aftermath of victories in California and other states, the following year politicians began unveiling proposals to further restrict tobacco industry promotion and costs. "The anti-smoking zealots tried first to throw water in everybody's face now they're throwing legislation," Ailes told one reporter. [5] (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/gpn84f00)

Acoording to his biographical profile to the Energy and Commerce Committee "in 1992, Ailes retired completely from political and corporate consulting to return full-time to television". [6] (http://energycommerce.house.gov/107/hearings/02142001Hearing216/Ailes320.htm)

Internal Philip Morris documents, however, reveal Ailes advised the company until at least 1994. A memo from PM's Washington office to head office providing an outline of supplementary monthly budget expenditures on consultants, listed "Roger Ailes contract" with a figure of $15,000 under the heading "general media strategy". [7] (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/uhb03e00)

In May 1993, PM's Craig Fuller sent a memo, titled "Firing Line show on Sin Taxes", to his colleagues. "I think we should look into this. Roger Ailes and I have talked about running ads with a coalition we will form ... one name "Coalition for Fair Funding of Health Care." We might get the group with whatever name to help fund the show. It is definitely worth thinking about and looking at more closely". (PM is the 'we' referred to in the note). [8] (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/mgs57c00)

(See Americans for Tax Reform and Defeating Clinton's healthcare plan for more details on the PM campaign to defeat proposals to fund an expanded health care plan with an increase in the tobacco excise rate.)

A few weeks later Philip Morris Vice President Corporate Affairs, Ellen Merlo, sent a letter to Ailes as Chairman of Ailes Communications informing him of the results of some market research on smoking. "Suffice it to say the percentages of those embarrassed about smoking and the militant antis are shifting very rapidly so that we are losing support," she glumly reported.[9] (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/can46e00)

Internal Philip Morris documents reveal that Ailes work for Philip Morris continued until at least the end of June 1994. A June 1994 e-mail to Craig Fuller canvassing possible speakers for a meeting the following month, Thomas Collamore wrote "(some possibilities: Roger Ailes who we pay 5k a month to be available;" before suggesting other possibilities.[10] (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/upq91a00)

Ailes role in the media industry includes:

in 1991 persuading "a syndicator to bring Rush Limbaugh from radio to television and became executive producer of the late-night show";
In 1993 was appointed President of NBC's cable channel CNBC;
introduced NBC cable channel, America's Talking in 1994;
in January 1996 was appointed as chief executive officer of Fox News and the FOX News Channel and, according to his biographical note, "also serves as a senior advisor to Rupert Murdoch, Chairman and CEO of the News Corporation Limited".
[edit]Career
Ailes began his career in television as a production assistant at Cleveland's KYW-TV, the station that launched the Mike Douglas Show, a popular daytime talk and variety show of the 1960s. At age 28, Ailes became the show's producer. He met Richard Nixon for the first time when Nixon appeared as a guest on the Douglas show, beginning the relationship that led to Ailes' hiring as a media consultant for Nixon's 1968 presidential campaign.

[edit]External links
Roger Ailes, "Roger Ailes, Chairman and CEO, Fox News Network (http://energycommerce.house.gov/107/hearings/02142001Hearing216/Ailes320.htm)", February 14, 2001.
Vigo G. (Chip) Nielsen, "CAUTI budget and expenditures to date (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/xjz54c00)", Bates No 87700371, December 9, 1988.
Nielsen Merksamer, "Californians Against Unfair Tax Increases No On Prop 99 cumulative cost vs budget report (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/ofx44d00)", Bates No 506628179, December 9, 1988.
Ailes Communications Inc, "CAUTI Recap (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/sqr86d00)", Bates No TCAL0406991, late 1988 (estimated).
Andy Plattner, "Big tobacco's toughest road: invigorated activists and lawmakers launch new attacks on smoking (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/gpn84f00)", Bates No TIMN 340086, April 17, 1989.
The Coors Connection (http://www.namebase.org/sources/NT.html), a list of Joseph Coors affiliations, namebase.org, 1990.
Roger Ailes, "Roger Ailes, Chairman and CEO, Fox News Network (http://energycommerce.house.gov/107/hearings/02142001Hearing216/Ailes320.htm)", February 14, 2001.
J Boland/T Borelli"Monthly budget supplement Re: ETS/OHSA Federal activities (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/uhb03e00), Bates No 204659149, February 17, 1993, page 2.
Craig Fuller, Firing line show on Sin Taxes (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/mgs57c00), Bates No2073010067, May 11, 1993.
Ellen Merlo, "letter to Roger Ailes (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/can46e00)", Bates No 2023962135, June 3, 1993.
Thomas Collamore, e-mail to Craig Fuller (http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/upq91a00), Bates No 2047915175A, June 29, 1994.
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/A/htmlA/ailesroger/ailesroger.htm

Link (disinfopedia)

and from Woodward's Bush at War...

Quote:

"Rove also kept in touch with the party apparatus and leading conservatives. One important-looking confidential communication came in to Rove from one of Bush's senior friends, so Bush took it to the Oval Office.

"Roger Ailes, former media guru for Bush's father, had a message, Rove told the president. It had to be confidential because Ailes, a flamboyant and irreverent media executive, was currently the head of FOX News, the conservative-leaning television cable network that was enjoying high ratings. In that position, Ailes was not supposed to be giving political advice. His back-channel message: The American public would tolerate waiting and would be patient, but only as long as they were convinced that Bush was using the harshest measures possible. Support would dissipate if the public did not see Bush acting harshly."]

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