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Is The Trinity Doctrine A Bible Teaching?

 
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Mar, 2018 06:43 pm
@anthony1312002,
I used to be a Jehovah's Witness. I disagreed with them. I disagreed after doing much historical study Of what the early church fathers believed and how they interpreted the Bible philosophically logically and theologically. The Catholic Church is the only church and can trace the laying of hands during holy orders for the priesthood or the physical touch goes all the way back to the 12 apostles in Jesus Christ – bringing the fade into reality. Why would anybody that disagrees with the Jehovah witness argue with them when they can become a Roman Catholic and enjoy the physical presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Mar, 2018 06:44 pm
@anthony1312002,
The word Catholic means universal. There is only one universal church we are all members. Someday there will be a bunch of people in heaven that find out they were Catholic and didn't know it.
0 Replies
 
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Apr, 2018 07:13 am
@brianjakub,
Well, basically it comes down to what the Bible really teaches. For example, among many of the reasons why a person should not believe in the trinity is stated by the Catholic Church itself in the New Catholic Encyclopedia as it states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

Yes, even the Catholic church recognizes that this was not initiated or supported by the early church fathers. So if this is, as the Catholic church states, "something not solidly established, and not fully assimilated in Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century, which by the way is well after the Bible was completed and the last apostle John was now dead, it becomes very clear that that neither Jesus, nor his apostles taught our believed this but that this teaching sprang up much later.

Also, in The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

And according to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2018 05:26 pm
@anthony1312002,
Quote:
Yes, even the Catholic church recognizes that this was not initiated or supported by the early church fathers. So if this is, as the Catholic church states, "something not solidly established, and not fully assimilated in Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century, which by the way is well after the Bible was completed and the last apostle John was now dead, it becomes very clear that that neither Jesus, nor his apostles taught our believed this but that this teaching sprang up much later.
Jesus Christ was not recognized as the savior till it was revealed to the apostles and eventually most of the world. Understanding of God and the scripture revealing God's character is a learning process established by God through men, the most important man being Jesus himself. Which men have the authority to interpret was designated by Jesus and physically established by laying of hands and breathing on them.

Bishops who were given authority to establish the bible, develop church teaching and perform the sacraments was physically established by laying on of hands in apostolic succession from the apostles down through the bishops. In other words every bishop had to be touched by a bishop who was touched by a bishop who was touched by an apostle who were touched by Jesus.

These people have the authority to establish the bible and how it was interpreted in church teaching. I recognize that authority.

Secondly I gave an explanation in an earlier post how the bible establishes the Trinity in the firs chapter of the Gospel of John, and how it agrees with the laws of nature. Both the atoms arranged in nature and in the scripture contain information communicated by God and they cannot contradict each other. https://able2know.org/topic/426762-1#post-6578854
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2018 05:58 am
@brianjakub,
Hey brianjakub, thank you for you thoughts. I've seen that explanation before but it runs into the problem of not being able to explain what the apostle John says in the same chapter at vs 18 where he states:

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

Here is the difficulty. If Jesus was God or even a part of a trinity in the flesh, would this statement be completely true? The clear answer is no since many individuals, including John saw Jesus. And yet one who saw him in person, the apostle John, makes it clear that neither he nor has any human seen God or even a part of him.

Also regarding the expression "only-begotten", the Greek word mo·no·ge·nesʹ is defined by lexicographers as “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144) The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents.

The Scriptures speak of “the only-begotten son” of a widow who lived in the city of Nain, of Jairus’ “only-begotten daughter,” and of a man’s “only-begotten” son whom Jesus cured of a demon. (Lu 7:11, 12; 8:41, 42; 9:38) The Greek Septuagint uses mo·no·ge·nesʹ when speaking of Jephthah’s daughter, concerning whom it is written: “Now she was absolutely the only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter.”​—Jg 11:34.

The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9) This is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. As the Loʹgos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (Joh 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”​—1Jo 4:9.

He is described as having “a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father,” the one residing “in the bosom position with the Father.” (Joh 1:14, 18) It is hard to think of a closer, more confidential, or more loving and tender relationship between a father and his son than this.​

Thus, when taking into account these factors we again see the Bible refuting the doctrine of the trinity.

brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2018 07:30 pm
@anthony1312002,
Quote:
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him
No one has seen what I am thinking either unless, I use my brain and body to turn what I am thinking into words and I explain my thoughts in a physically perceptible way
Quote:
is the difficulty. If Jesus was God or even a part of a trinity in the flesh, would this statement be completely true?

yes it is completely true. Jesus reveals to us God's thoughts. I thought about this sentence an hour ago, my hand didn't know about typing it till I told it to type.
Quote:
He is described as having “a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father,” the one residing “in the bosom position with the Father.” (Joh 1:14, 18) It is hard to think of a closer, more confidential, or more loving and tender relationship between a father and his son than this.​
No one human knows my thoughts and feelings better than my body. Nor is any closer to my mind than my body.

I hate when people put alternative motives to my actions.
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2018 07:48 am
@brianjakub,
Hey brianjakub, where you state: "No one has seen what I am thing either unless, I use my brian and body to turn what I am thinking into words and I explain my thoughts in a physically perceptible way"

This does not explain what the apostle states in verse 18. Clearly John knew what he was talking about when he, under inspiration of God's holy spirit, recorded these words. John knew that Jesus was who he said he was, not God in the flesh, or part of a triune god head, which is never implicitly implied or alluded to in the texts, but the Son of God.

When asked directly by Jesus who the apostles thought he was, Peter stated most succinctly at Matthew 16:16 "You are the Christ (anointed one), the Son of the living God." In verse 17 Jesus commends Peter for having answered correctly.

The Scriptures are not ambiguous in their meaning or intent, but clearly understandable. May we always hold to what the Bible teaches and not subscribe to teachings that mirror those of ancient Babylon where various trinities were worshipped.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Apr, 2018 07:46 pm
@anthony1312002,
The bible by itself is not the soul authority in Christian doctorine. I dont know how it could be when christian doctorine was being established as christ created the universe. The interpretation of the bible as carried on by the traditions and majesterium instituted by the bishops of the roman catholic church is the most accurate with historical documentation we have. Plus, the trinity fulfills scientific understanding of transmitting intelligent ideas.

I agree the scriptures are unambiguous that is why i believe in the trinity. In the end you and i are christians making an honest effort to understand God and Jesus. There is a good chance we will meet to settle this after the second coming.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Apr, 2018 07:47 pm
@brianjakub,
Just remember there will only be roman catholics in heaven, some just wont know they are catholic till they get there.😊✌️
0 Replies
 
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Apr, 2018 12:18 pm
@brianjakub,
It is interesting that you feel that the Bible is not the soul authority in Christian teaching. There is a great danger in thinking this way. Taking this view allows one to become vulnerable to other ideas that have no place in Christian life or teaching and refute the Bible as being the infallible Word of God.

Most interestingly, neither Moses nor any of the other faithful Jews ever subscribed to the idea that God was a trinity.

When the nation of Israel received the Law covenant, which forms part of the Bible, they were commanded: “You must never have any other gods against my face.” (Deuteronomy 5:7) How many persons were speaking here? Without any confusion, Deuteronomy 6:4 reads: “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah”?—not three in one. Israel had just been liberated from Egypt, where Osiris, Isis, and Horus, one of a number of triads of gods were worshipped. Therefore, Israel was commanded to worship just one God. How important was it for people to understand this command? According to Dr. J. H. Hertz, a rabbi: “This sublime pronouncement of absolute monotheism was a declaration of war against all polytheism . . . The Shema excludes the trinity of the Christian creed as a violation of the Unity of God.”

Since Jesus was a Jew by birth, he was instructed to follow this same command. After his baptism, when tempted by the Devil, he said: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matthew 4:10; Deuteronomy 6:13) We can learn at least two things from this incident. First, Satan was trying to entice Jesus to worship someone other than Jehovah, an attempt that would have been absurd if Jesus were part of the same God. Second, Jesus made it clear that there is just one God who must be worshipped when he said “him alone,” not “us,” which he would have said if he were part of a Trinity.

It is fascinating that in some of it's teachings Catholicism so closely resembles the religions of ancient Egypt and Babylon. Especially when it comes to the trinity. But this gives rise to the question, who worshipped the trinity first, Catholicism or ancient Egypt? History has already provided the answer. Ancient Egypt and then Babylon.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2018 05:22 pm
@anthony1312002,
How could the bible be the soul authority. Every man has his own conscience and so each man will let the bible interpret the bible the way his conscience and his biases allow him. That is why there are thousands of bible only denominations and only one Catholic Church.

The catholic Church does not teach anything that contradicts a logical interpretation of the bible.

Quote:
Most interestingly, neither Moses nor any of the other faithful Jews ever subscribed to the idea that God was a trinity.


Jesus is the Word of God and is God's body and eventually recieved a body of flesh when he was born.

Moses didn't understand that because Jesus wasn't born yet for man to experience that bit of information.

Quote:

When the nation of Israel received the Law covenant, which forms part of the Bible, they were commanded: “You must never have any other gods against my face.” (Deuteronomy 5:7) How many persons were speaking here? Without any confusion, Deuteronomy 6:4 reads: “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah”?—not three in one. Israel had just been liberated from Egypt, where Osiris, Isis, and Horus, one of a number of triads of gods were worshipped. Therefore, Israel was commanded to worship just one God. How important was it for people to understand this command? According to Dr. J. H. Hertz, a rabbi: “This sublime pronouncement of absolute monotheism was a declaration of war against all polytheism . . . The Shema excludes the trinity of the Christian creed as a violation of the Unity of God.”


When Jesus speaks God is speaking. Jesus was the Living Word being spoken to the Jews that day. If He wasn't they would not have heard God. God the Father is the thought and Jesus is His Living Word. Jesus never misspeaks. (Unlike my mouth which doesn't always communicate exactly what I am thinking.)

Quote:
Since Jesus was a Jew by birth, he was instructed to follow this same command. After his baptism, when tempted by the Devil, he said: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matthew 4:10; Deuteronomy 6:13) We can learn at least two things from this incident. First, Satan was trying to entice Jesus to worship someone other than Jehovah, an attempt that would have been absurd if Jesus were part of the same God. Second, Jesus made it clear that there is just one God who must be worshipped when he said “him alone,” not “us,” which he would have said if he were part of a Trinity.


Jesus was telling Satan Go away, I am going to only do what I have been doing, being the Living Word of God the Father. I am not going to bring your ideas into existence for you by following your requests. (And note that is the only way satan gets power, by getting a trinity or, somebody created in the image of the trinity that has a body namely "man", to do the dirty Work for him because he has no physical body of his own to experience the physical world. All he does it twist the meaning of God's words through us.

Quote:
It is fascinating that in some of it's teachings Catholicism so closely resembles the religions of ancient Egypt and Babylon. Especially when it comes to the trinity. But this gives rise to the question, who worshipped the trinity first, Catholicism or ancient Egypt? History has already provided the answer. Ancient Egypt and then Babylon.


I think it is fascinating and expected. Those religions had to be started by Noah and his descendants. Noah new God well so, there was a lot of truth in what he passed on. All oral traditions will get twisted eventually but a lot of truth remained. That's why scripture was introduced through Israel and then Clarified by Jesus himself the founder of the Catholic Church to clarify what Noah had started and was lost over time.
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2018 10:42 am
@brianjakub,
Hey brianjakub, looking at the point regarding Jesus telling Satan to go away, can you explain again how your understand that? Was Satan tempting God in the flesh?
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2018 03:28 pm
@anthony1312002,
Satan had been disagreeing with the Living Word of God long before the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That is why he and the rest of the fallen angels were cast out of heaven. Satan thought that now he had a better chance of getting The Living Word to cave to his evil will since the Living Word chose to enter the fallen universe as the son of a virgin. Unfortunately for Satan, even though he had all the physical characteristics of a man He was still the unshakable Living Word of God.
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2018 10:00 am
@brianjakub,
I agree with Jesus being the Living Word of God, but, and I'm not trying to be confrontational, was Satan tempting God himself?
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2018 10:59 am
@anthony1312002,
Because they are provided with a 'limited' version of God.

anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2018 01:14 pm
@mark noble,
A limited version of God? Could you explain?
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2018 04:00 pm
@anthony1312002,
Not completely.

Because God is Everything.

'Trinity' = 'Not Everything'.

'Trinity' limits/restricts/encases.

Excuse me, If I appear vague. I reduce, primes, to base.
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2018 06:17 pm
@anthony1312002,
I am not trying to be confrontational either. When Satan tempted God in heaven before Satan was cast out Satan tried to get the Living Word of God who is God to disagree with God. When the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us God now had a physical body that had entered the fallen world. Satan thought great now, I can use the fact that God can be spiritually tempted through his physical senses like hunger and other urges just like you and I are tempted through our bodily urges. We are a trintarian type being created in the image of God. We would not be a complete being without an intelligent soul a spirit to decern and a body to express our words.
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2018 05:53 am
@brianjakub,
Thank you for explaining your point. But there is something that we need to consider. The word temptation is defined as: a desire to do something, especially something wrong or unwise.

During the the event you mention that involves the faithful man Job, Satan did in fact try to get God to do something that would have been contrary to his standards. But in order for this to have been a temptation Jehovah would have first have been subject to the desire to do something wrong. He never had this desire so in affect he was not tempted but was being dared by the devil. To dare means to defy or challenge (someone) to do something, which is exactly what the devil did. This is why God had these words recorded in the Bible book of James 1:13 where it states: "When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone.

Note that Jehovah says that he cannot be tried or tempted. This is absolutely true. But in the case of Jesus we a different story. At Matthew 4:8-11 the temptation set before the Son Of God was real in that Satan really could give to Jesus the Kingdoms of the world and their glory if Jesus did just one thing, fall down and do an act of worship to Satan. Even Jesus called Satan the ruler of this world at John 14:30.

Thus we see again how the Bible makes a clear distinction between Jesus and his Father Jehovah. One could be tempted, the Son, while the other, the Father, could not.


brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2018 06:24 am
@anthony1312002,
I believe that my ability to think exists without my body. I believe the body allows me to express to other people what I am thinking. When the body dies the ability to think still exists. Without a physical body (especially a fallen body in a fallen world) it is impossible for Satan to tempt my mind after I die even though my mind still exists and is sleeping.

In the same way Satan and God exchanged thoughts before the Living Word received a physical body but, God’s physical body could not be tempted through physical feelings of hunger like it was When the Living Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

We are created in the image of God. We relate to Satan in a pattern that is Similar to God’s. Satan tries to change the spiritual meaning of God’s word then, he hopes the Living Word or us will change the way God’s Ideas are manifested in the physical world.

How God reacts to sin is not detectable or understandable by us (so we can learn from the experience) if we can’t observe God’s body (Jesus) reacting to Satan’s temptations in a physical way.

Don’t be afraid to believe in the Trinity. God wants to have a physical relationship with you, it is much more intimate. That is why His Living Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That is why He physically established the priesthood and apolstolic succession. Life is in the blood and the DNA including God’s now that He became flesh and that body of flesh rose and is still alive.
 

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