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Satan (a discussion)

 
 
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 06:24 am
This discussion is under the premise that Satan both exists and opposes God.

What is Satans goal?
What methods do you believe he uses to acheive said goal?

An interesting side track for the atheists among us, if you were the devil, how would you go about the task.
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Type: Question • Score: 13 • Views: 11,061 • Replies: 219
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 06:44 am
@Smileyrius,
Let's see, if I am an Omnipotent God, and I am, it doesn't matter what Satan's goal is because I (the Great I AM) can boink him out of existence at any moment in time, past, present and future.

Joe(I was having a joke on Myself that day I created Satan. Hah. What a kidder.)Nation
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 07:54 am
@Joe Nation,
probably a discussion for another thread, but thats pretty deep Wink
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 09:02 am
Why would an atheist bother with this nonsense? No god, no satan.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 09:09 am
@Smileyrius,
Satan is a Christian deity who was borrowed by the Islamic religion. He isn't part of any other world views.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 09:12 am
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:

probably a discussion for another thread, but thats pretty deep Wink


I don't see how Joe's comment is not germane to this question.

If the GOD is omnipotent...and was the creator of all things, including Satan...and can boink anything out of existence at will...

...the deck is so stacked against Satan that your question dissolves.

Right?
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 09:20 am
@Setanta,
I find Atheists like to join in Christian discussions all the time, you dont have to play along Set Smile
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 09:30 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I don't see how Joe's comment is not germane to this question.

If the GOD is omnipotent...and was the creator of all things, including Satan...and can boink anything out of existence at will...

...the deck is so stacked against Satan that your question dissolves.


Remains the possibility that Satan is just a tool of God, a minister in charge of corruption affairs.

This was in fact the original position of Satan in the Hebrew pantheon:

New American Standard Bible
Quote:
Job 2 1Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD. 2The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” 3The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.” 4Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5“However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face.” 6So the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.”
7Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 09:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
You're right in that it has a bearing on the wider picture, but in order to address it, we'd have to dicuss a large number of issues that would essentially derail the thread.
The question Joe raises, while a good one, I perceive is aimed moreso toward the viability of the Devil story. Id happily discuss that in another thread.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 09:45 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I don't see how Joe's comment is not germane to this question.

If the GOD is omnipotent...and was the creator of all things, including Satan...and can boink anything out of existence at will...

...the deck is so stacked against Satan that your question dissolves.


Remains the possibility that Satan is just a tool of God, a minister in charge of corruption affairs.

This was in fact the original position of Satan in the Hebrew pantheon:

New American Standard Bible
Quote:
Job 2 1Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD. 2The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” 3The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.” 4Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5“However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face.” 6So the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.”
7Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.




Either way...the question Smiley asks essentially is: How does Satan go about opposing GOD?

He doesn't! It is a silly concept...since the deck is stacked against him. ANYTHING Satan does...the GOD can easily stop in its tracks.

The question dissolves under its own weight.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 09:47 am
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:

You're right in that it has a bearing on the wider picture, but in order to address it, we'd have to dicuss a large number of issues that would essentially derail the thread.
The question Joe raises, while a good one, I perceive is aimed moreso toward the viability of the Devil story. Id happily discuss that in another thread.


Okay...so you should really go to that next thread immediately, because this one ends the moment you posit an omnipotent GOD.

There is no move...there are no moves that work to oppose an OMNIPOTENT GOD.

With all the respect in the world for what you seem to be trying to do here, Smiley...you can put all the lipstick on that pig you want...and it is still a pig.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 09:48 am
@Smileyrius,
Ok so the idea is that there are 2 gods, one (God) good and creator of all things, and one (Satan) bad and rebel to his creator. These two guys fight for the control of the 1st guy's creation, I suppose, but with limited powers (like God cannot destroy Satan, and Satan can't just blow the earth into oblivion, or make devastating earthquakes happen; he has some connection with humans and acts ONLY through them, right?).

I'm supposed to play Satan... Let's see...

I'd support man's follies. His fears, his hatred, his ambition. I'd use them to pit man against man, nation against nation in war after war.

I'd use man's greed to destroy the earth.

This assuming that the good god has created greed, and fears, and hatred... Slightly odd when you think of it but nobody's perfect.... I'd use God's mistakes against his creation.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 09:50 am
@Smileyrius,
To join in a discussion on the plausibility of passages of scripture, or to critique the behavior of Christians in view of their professed values is one thing. To speculate on what one doesn't believe is a different matter all together. If you profess that one should love his or her neighbor, it's pertinent to point it out if Christians obviously don't give a rat's ass about their neighbors. If one asserts that all scripture is divinely inspired and inerrant, it's pertinent to point out when scriptures contradict one another, or when there are gross errors in scripture's description of the real world in their time period for which we have reliable records.

However, to speculate on what would be the behavior of make-believe characters is petty damned silly. There's another thread here in which the author states why he is an "athiest" (his spelling). It quickly became apparent that the author was angry at god. If he's angry at god, he's not an atheist because he acknowledges the existence of a god. If, however, he truly is an atheist, he may be angry at many things or persons, but not god. It is typical of many theists who assume that there is a god to act as though atheists will think from the same perspective. If they did, they wouldn't actually be atheists.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 09:57 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
the question Smiley asks essentially is: How does Satan go about opposing GOD?

He doesn't! It is a silly concept...since the deck is stacked against him. ANYTHING Satan does...the GOD can easily stop in its tracks.

The question dissolves under its own weight.


Indeed. You'd have to assume God is not omnipotent.

Which of course He's not, for if He was, He'd be able to create a problem He'd be incapable to solve, but then...
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 May, 2013 10:43 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
It is typical of many theists who assume that there is a god to act as though atheists will think from the same perspective. If they did, they wouldn't actually be atheists. [/quote

I concede to your point
0 Replies
 
Kolyo
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 May, 2013 09:11 am
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:

Let's see, if I am an Omnipotent God, and I am, it doesn't matter what Satan's goal is because I (the Great I AM) can boink him out of existence at any moment in time, past, present and future.


Ultimately, God won't do that because She plays by the rules She made up that govern Her struggle with Satan. If in fact She created a Satan, it was to make human beings' pursuit of love over hatred meaningful. All meaningful games have rules that one must abide by, and boinking Satan out of existence when things got the least bit frustrating would cheapen and spoil the game.

In reference to the original question, if Satan exists, then I would say Satan's goals are (1) to confound all cooperative human endeavour, (2) the triumph of strife and hatred over love and cooperation.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 May, 2013 09:54 pm
Disclaimer: If you don't believe the Bible, this discussion might not be relevant.

Satan is referred to as a liar (John 8:44) because he lied to Adam and Eve, telling them, if they ate the fruit, not only would they not die, but they would be better off, judging for themselves what was good and what was bad.

Joe Nation is correct that an almighty God could zap Satan into oblivion anytime he chooses to do so. So, why is Satan still alive? And why was he able to offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world at Matthew 4:8? Well, for one thing, if the rebels had been destroyed on the spot, we could not have been born. But, perhaps more importantly in the grand scheme of things, there were allegations raised which would take time to sort out. Among those are:
1] Did Jehovah lie?
2] Are people better off setting their own standards of good and bad?
3] Do people serve God only out of selfishness? an allegation highlighted by Satan's claim at Job 2:4 ". . . Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul". (Note this allegation applies not only to Job, but to all men)

So, just as God permitted Satan to test Job, he has permitted his rule over the earth until this day. Satan will eventually receive his due; you and I might argue the abundance of human misery over the centuries is more than sufficient to prove Satan wrong and end his domination. But we are not the timekeepers.

As to how Satan came to be Satan, that involves a discussion of free will.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 May, 2013 07:31 am
@neologist,
Quote:
Satan is referred to as a liar (John 8:44) because he lied to Adam and Eve, telling them, if they ate the fruit, not only would they not die, but they would be better off, judging for themselves what was good and what was bad.


Here we go again. It was a serpent who persuaded Adam and Eve to eat the fruit. It was not Satan.

We know this because the text refers to the serpent as one of "the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made". And God punishes snakes for this act, condemning them to crawl in the dust which wouldn't make sense if it wasn't really a literal snake at fault.

See Genesis 3 for the actual text.

I don't know why you persist in this error.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 May, 2013 09:45 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I wrote:
Satan is referred to as a liar (John 8:44) because he lied to Adam and Eve, telling them, if they ate the fruit, not only would they not die, but they would be better off, judging for themselves what was good and what was bad.
Here we go again. It was a serpent who persuaded Adam and Eve to eat the fruit. It was not Satan.

We know this because the text refers to the serpent as one of "the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made". And God punishes snakes for this act, condemning them to crawl in the dust which wouldn't make sense if it wasn't really a literal snake at fault.

See Genesis 3 for the actual text.

I don't know why you persist in this error.
Perhaps because it is not an error?
Who is this guy? (Revelation 12:9) " So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. . ." (emphasis mine)
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 May, 2013 10:27 am
@neologist,
That's a silly argument. Just because the same word happens to be used doesn't mean anything. Does every lamb mentioned in the Bible literally refer to Jesus? Peter is "the rock", does that mean it was Peter that David hurled at Goliath to slay him?

You have to look at the text for what it is. And, it is very clear.

The serpent in Genesis was a snake, a created "beast of the field". His descendants (today's snakes) were punished for his role in the story. This does not describe Satan.

Read the text in Genesis 3 again.

 

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