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Is The Trinity Doctrine A Bible Teaching?

 
 
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2017 10:03 am
Many Christian denominations teach that God is a Trinity. However, note what the Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.” An interesting statement from a neutral source.

Why do most Christian denominations say that God is a Trinity?
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brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2018 11:35 pm
@anthony1312002,
The trinity emerges logically from Christian doctrine.

God the father thinks of an Idea
Jesus the living word turns the idea into a pattern that can be understood. (The living word)

The pattern is physically stored in rotating standing waves called atoms of the universe (creation)

The Holy Spirit makes the word or idea is interpreted correctly by everyone who receives it.
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hightor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 06:18 am
@anthony1312002,
As with most Christian dogma the concept of the trinity was a compromise between various factions who were squabbling with each other and accusing each other of heresy.

Most Christian denominations accept the trinity because after 300 years of debate it was established as Christian doctrine in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

Anthony and Richard Hanson wrote:
This was a long, confused, process whereby different schools of thought in the Church worked out for themselves, and then tried to impose on others, their answer to the question, ‘How divine is Jesus Christ?’ . . . If ever there was a controversy decided by the method of trial and error, it was this one.


The concept is never mentioned in the bible and the convoluted arguments which were subsequently invented to support the idea are the best indications that it is indeed specious, an artifice crafted by clever minds to mask the obvious deficiencies in the new religion's theology.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 08:37 am
@hightor,
Is my statement illogical or convoluted? If so why?

I think the first chapter of the gospel of John is a pretty clear biblical support of my reasoning for the Trinity. What do you think and why?
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 10:09 am
@brianjakub,
I'm looking at it this way: the concept is simply not mentioned in the bible. It didn't become part of Christian teaching until 350 years after the death of Jesus. It was a man-made concept, heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. The idea that this doctrine, central to the Christian faith, was not prophesied in the O.T., known to Paul or the apostles, or even once mentioned by Jesus makes it pretty obviously just one more example of elaborate after-the-fact reconciliation.
Quote:
The pattern is physically stored in rotating standing waves called atoms of the universe (creation).

Everything is physically stored in the universe, including a Christianity without a trinity.


brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 07:51 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
I'm looking at it this way: the concept is simply not mentioned in the bible.
Gospel according to John
Quote:
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Witness John
6 There [c]came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 [d]He came [e]as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 [f]He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light [g]which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [h]own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of [j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [m]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness [n]we have all received, and [o]grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth [p]were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.


Like I said earlier God the Father thinks of an Idea the Words that are formed to allow the idea to be stored in matter are the Living Word and are expressed and stored in the creation.

Finally in verse 18 it explains how No one has seen God the Father because, He is just the invisible thoughts behind the words, but the words expressed by Jesus in the universe and in Jesus' body express the idea of the Father.
This is similar to how nobody can see your thoughts or ideas but your body expresses our ideas for you.

What does this part of the gospel of John say to you.
Quote:
Matthew 12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Quote:
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.


I think everyone who is Christian accepts that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, but God sends the Holy Spirit out as entities with a consciences of their own.

We can feel a Trinity in ourselves when our Ideas in our mind struggle with the urges of our spirit which manifest from our flesh. Sometimes it feels like we are fighting ourselves to be righteous. Our flesh and spirit do not have a conscience of their own like God's though.
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2018 07:32 am
@brianjakub,
Hi brianjakub. I noted your response about the deity of Christ. But there is something to consider. In order to understand the true nature of the relationship between Jesus and his Father correctly it would be good to examine what the relationship between them is while in heaven. For there we would see things as they really are.

First, let's deal with the definition of the trinity. One definition states: "There are 3 that bare record in heaven, and yet there are not three but one. God the Father, God The Son and God the Holy Spirit. All are equal, none greater none lesser." Using this definition it would mean that Jesus would be equal to his Father in everything while in heaven. But note how Jesus does not agree with this and actually shows that even while in heaven, he is not equal to his Father.

We begin by considering at least 2 Bible books that were written long after Jesus had ascended back to heaven, Revelation and 1st Corinthians. We will deal with these one at a time. First, the Bible book of Revelation. In the very first chapter and first verse of this book Jesus reveals something to the apostle John. It states: Revelation 1:1 "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,"

Note that while in heaven, Jesus reports that he had something revealed to him that he did not know before. He was given a revelation.

Thus this gives rise to the question. While in heaven, if Jesus was God, or part of a trinity, who could reveal anything to him? He would already know it, wouldn't he? Now remember, this is while he is in heaven, not on the earth. Next, note the flow of information. It is always from the top down. While in heaven Jesus receives it from his Father, Jesus then gives it to an angel who then gives it to the apostle.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Feb, 2018 05:06 pm
@anthony1312002,
Quote:
Thus this gives rise to the question. While in heaven, if Jesus was God, or part of a trinity, who could reveal anything to him? He would already know it, wouldn't he? Now remember, this is while he is in heaven, not on the earth.
Since we are created in the image of God let's look out how we create and share intelligent ideas, and assume God is the pattern we are following.

1. Like God, you think of an idea. The idea is a spiritual or abstract thing. for example, you could compare that idea to a number. The number 2 does not physically exist. it is an abstract idea that allows us to keep track of physical things like the number of atoms, universes, or waves per second. Until you have something physical to count and physically represent and a place to physically store the the idea you cannot share the idea with anyone else. Once the idea is stored and shared it becomes a word like God's Living Word represented by Jesus.

2. You can only express and share ideas in words. Until it is shared you cannot tell the idea existed. Jesus is the Words that describe God's ideas and store them in the atoms of the physical world.
Gospel of John
Quote:
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it

Before a man's ideas (ideas are life and Light) can be shared they must be turned into words in his mind, and then stored in atoms in his body to be prepared for transmission to another persons mind either through spoken words, sign language, or written word. Before ideas leave your mind they exist. Before ideas go through the process of rearrange the molecules of your mind they exist, (Maybe for only a millisecond). That process or flow is always the order like you stated.

Quote:
Next, note the flow of information. It is always from the top down. While in heaven Jesus receives it from his Father, Jesus then gives it to an angel who then gives it to the apostle.


The information is always shared using the same process no matter who creates the idea.

1. God the Father thinks of the idea. (You think of an idea)

2. Jesus, which exists as the first as the abstract representation of the idea, before it is transferred into a physical existence in the matter of the universe or shared with another spiritual being like an angel.(Your brain turns an abstract idea into a physical message or code stored in your brain ready for transmission). Jesus exists whether he exists physically in the universe or abstractly with God and the Holy Spirit.

3. The Holy Spirit and any other spiritual being interprets the the idea in the context that it understands the is presented. This is where truth and falsehood (light and darkness, good and evil) come into play, "in the spiritual interpretation" of the idea.

Note Jesus and the Holy Spirit always existed as the receiver, code writer interpreter and transmitter of the idea even before the universe and the angel existed. They necessary for an idea to completely go through the process. All three together in the Trinity are necessary for God to exist as a being that can develop and share an intelligent idea.
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Feb, 2018 09:52 am
@brianjakub,
Hi brianjakub, thanks for responding. I carefully examined your response, but, I noted that this does not address the question of why all three do not have the same knowledge at the same time while in heaven. Remember, in the truest sense of the trinity, there would not be a case where one part of the trinity would know something and the other 2 not know that exact same thing.

Also, as you noted, the Father is always the one giving the instruction. Even while in heaven Jesus makes it clear that he is only the recipient or receiver, not the originator of the message while in heaven. And when it comes to sharing thoughts between them, there would be no need for anything to be shared between them if they were all 3 equal in knowledge.

InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Feb, 2018 01:43 pm
@anthony1312002,
A Jehovah's Witness here explained that God is selectively knowledgeable about anything. His omniscience doesn't limit him to knowing anything and everything at once. He chooses what he's knowledgeable and ignorant of. Humanity's free will is predicated on this aspect of Jehovah's omniscience.
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Feb, 2018 02:50 pm
@InfraBlue,
Excellent thought InfraBlue! Yes, Jehovah can choose either to know something or not. He has that choice. This is what presents a problem for the trinity teaching. In the Scriptures only Jehovah is attributed with being omniscient, something that is never attributed to Jesus even while in heaven.

But here is a 2nd point of study on this subject. In considering the overall context of chapter 15 of 1st Corinthians, the apostle is inspired by God to write down the future events that will take place regarding Jesus his Son after he has completed everything his Father has given him to do. After establishing that Jesus has been resurrected, the apostle says something very enlightening starting at vs 24 and continuing on through vs 28 that reveals again that even while in heaven, Jesus is not equal to his Father in authority.

1 Corinthians 15:24 "Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."

Letting the Scriptures speak for themselves, it becomes very clear that once Jesus has accomplished everything he was sent to do, including bringing and end to death, he will then give up the authority he was given by his Father and again become subject to him or come fully under the authority of his Father.

How clearly the Scripture reveal matters. It removes any mystery regarding the relationship between Jesus and his Father, Jehovah.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Feb, 2018 04:20 pm
@anthony1312002,
Sure, there are contradictory texts in the Bible, what with mystics like Paul letting their mouths get ahead of their brains, he often contradicts himself, and writes incoherently. You're pitting a Gospel, John, against a letter written by Paul.
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2018 09:00 am
@InfraBlue,
Interesting, you mention contradictory texts. Which texts have you found to be contradictory?
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2018 11:57 am
@anthony1312002,
A slew of them, e.g. John and Paul's first letter to the Corinthan church, as I had mentioned.
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2018 02:35 pm
@InfraBlue,
But what makes it a contradiction?
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2018 10:35 pm
@anthony1312002,
In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul stresses Christ's subordination to God, whereas in John 1 it describes the Word as being with God, and being God, and through him, the Word/God, everything was made.
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Feb, 2018 08:21 am
@InfraBlue,
Ah, I see. When doing a bit of research it becomes clear that the statements at 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and John 1:1 really do not contradict each other. It is important to take into consideration the entire context of a chapter to draw the right conclusions. For example, the context of John Chapter 1 shows that Christ Jesus and the Father are 2 distinct individuals. Case in point. If you continue reading into John chp 1 you come to verse 18 which states: John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

Question: Would John 1: 18 be true if Jesus was God in the flesh? No it would not. And since we know the Word of God is truth, then what John says here is true.

No where in the Scriptures do we find Jesus stating that he was God. As a matter of fact Jesus does the opposite. Note his response when the Jews charged him with saying he was a God. Consider the context of Jesus being confronted by the religious leaders at John 10:31-33.

John 10:31 Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.

Now note Jesus response in vs 36:
John 10:36 "do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

Clearly it was the Jews who made the charge that he was making himself a God. But Jesus corrects them in vs 36.

Often the error comes in when texts such as what Jesus says at John 10:30 "I and the Father are one" are not considered in the context of the entire chapter and book. There he states that he and the Father “are one” in connection with their dealings with his disciples, his “sheep,” who are given to him by the Father. (Joh 10:25-30; 17:2, 9) It is important to note that the Greek word here rendered “one” is in the neuter gender (denoting “one thing”), not in the masculine gender (denoting “one person”).

Thus when putting what is said at John 1:1 in it's proper context with the rest of the chapter and book of John, it becomes clear that no contradiction exists but a beautiful harmony appears between the Bible books of John1:1, 18; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and Revelation 1:1.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Feb, 2018 04:21 pm
@anthony1312002,
What's clear is that you're drawing conclusions from your interpretation of John in ways that aren't explicitly stated therein. The idea of the trinity is rationalized in this manner as well.

John 1:18 is in keeping with John 1:1's assertion that in beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God.

John 1:18 is more directly translated as, "God no one has seen ever yet [the] only-begotten God the [one] being in the bosom of the Father he has made [him] know." It refers to the only-begotten "God" Theos Θεὸς, and not "Son," which in this context would have been huios [/i]υἱὸς[/i].

Also, you overlook John 10:38, "But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father,” which is congruent with John 1:1 and John 1:18.

One important factor that affects one's interpretations of these texts are the translations thereof. Some translations aren't as faithful to the original texts as others.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Feb, 2018 08:18 pm
@anthony1312002,
Quote:
Hi brianjakub, thanks for responding. I carefully examined your response, but, I noted that this does not address the question of why all three do not have the same knowledge at the same time while in heaven. Remember, in the truest sense of the trinity, there would not be a case where one part of the trinity would know something and the other 2 not know that exact same thing.
They all have access to the same knowledge but, the sharing of that knowledge by developing and sharing an idea takes a process that all three persons of the trinity participate in together but differently. All three have a different and distinct responsibility in the process because of their nature. Their nature is defined by natural law which is revealed by God in the process of sharing his knowledge with us through Jesus (His Word and now also the physical representation of His Word) and the interpreter of the correct understanding of the Word, the Holy Spirit.

Natural Law which reveals God's nature shows us that all knowledge if it is to be shared must go through the same process.

1. The knowledge creates an idea. (God the Father who is pure perfect and complete knowledge does that.)

2. The ideas must be turned into pictures symbols or words to be shared. (This must happen even for Jesus and the Holy Spirit to understand God's ideas).
If the idea is just to be shared within the Trinity of God or anyone in spiritual union with them that is all that is needed.

But God wants more than sharing of ideas with us. He wants us to experience His ideas, and have the freedom to learn through experience so. . .

3. To share the "experience of the idea" the idea must be stored in a physical universe separate from the creator of the idea so, it can be experienced and understood by each individual in their own way. (This is true for all ideas including yours and mine. They must be transferred from the universe of our bodies to the universe of the space time continuum if the experience of the idea is to be shared with other intelligent beings that have the freedom of living in their own body. )

That is where the Jesus and the Holy Spirit come in. They make God's knowledge real in the physical universe by storing it in words in the atoms of the universe, and then the Holy Spirit helps us interpret the words and the experience the Way God the Father intended it. (The Holy Spirit does this if we submit our Spirit To the will of The Holy Spirit.)

Quote:
Also, as you noted, the Father is always the one giving the instruction. Even while in heaven Jesus makes it clear that he is only the recipient or receiver, not the originator of the message while in heaven. And when it comes to sharing thoughts between them, there would be no need for anything to be shared between them if they were all 3 equal in knowledge.


God the Father knows everything always all the time. Jesus expresses what God knows by experiencing it in words( including the words stored in the atoms of the universe). Jesus (like your body) learns through experience.
But unlike God your mind has to learn, God's doesn't. And unlike your body Jesus doesn't learn from mistakes he learns from experience.

So, does Jesus need to experience to know? I think yes. Whether the experience is a thought picture in their minds or a physical experience in the universe like when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Does Jesus need to ask The Father to know what the father knows? I think yes. (There are examples of Him asking the Father questions in scripture,)

Does He always get a complete answer and have access to all of the knowledge of the Father? I would say yes.

Can we access the knowledge of the Father without going through the process of understanding by experiencing His Word as expressed through His Body Jesus Christ (which are included in the words He stored in the atoms of the universe)? I say no because, that goes against the Laws of nature that reveal the reality of God the Father (which is His knowledge) as it is presented to us through the Son as stated above.
anthony1312002
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Feb, 2018 06:46 am
@InfraBlue,
Hey InfraBlue. Interestingly at both John 1:1 and 10:38 only 2 persons are involved here, Jesus and his Father. Nothing inferring a 3rd individual is present in these texts. Also, in the matter of interpretation, this is something I don't engage in. The Scriptures interpret themselves and it is up to us to accept them for what they teach on their own.

But a special note regarding John 1:1 should also be included. Greek grammar and the context strongly indicate that the rendering that “the Word” should not be identified as the “God” referred to earlier in the verse. Nevertheless, the fact that the Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. It is for this reason that a Bible translation in a language that was spoken in the earliest centuries of our Common Era is very interesting.

The language is the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: “Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses.

The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.”

Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What do we find? The Sahidic Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word “god” in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads: “And the Word was a god.” Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John’s words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was a god, not Almighty God.

Thus again, the Scriptures do make it clear that Jesus is who he says he is, even while in heaven, the Son of God, subject to his Father.
 

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