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Me Too

 
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 06:02 am
@engineer,
MeToo is being used by a liberal faction to push a political ideology. It is telling men to "shut up". It is pushing negative stereotypes of men in general with terms such as "toxic masculinity". There some valid points being made about the abuse of power, I agree with them. I am not opposing all of MeToo... I am opposing the rather extreme political ideology that is using it to push an narrative that goes far beyond the abuse of power.

I understand why you keep bringing Black Lives Matter into a thread about Me Too. I strongly support Black Lives Matter. I don't support Me Too. You are trying to argue that it doesn't make sense to support one with supporting the other.

This is a silly argument and part of the reason for our partisan divide. Just because I agree with the liberal bubble on one issue, doesn't mean that I need to agree with them on another. And to me these issues aren't at all the same. It wasn't that long ago that White women owned slaves and literally had the power of life and death over them.

This arguing point by point is silly. So fine... the indisputable fact is that I support Black Lives Matter and I don't support the extent to which the MeToo movement is being pushed by what I see as liberal extremism.

I have raised two sons of color. I have had first hand experiences of what they went through. I am raising a White teen aged daughter. I teach all of my kids to be confident and assertive and fearless. My sons had to learn lessons about how to adjust to a society that still doesn't fully accept them. My daughter is growing up in a society that sees her as special. I talk to my daughter about both sides of the "MeToo" movement. I want her to understand that she can be confident and assertive.

To me, the issues of race and gender are not at all the same.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 07:22 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
the indisputable fact is that I support Black Lives Matter and I don't support the extent to which the MeToo movement is being pushed by what I see as liberal extremism.

What is truly indisputable is that BLM has some structure, even if loose: a website, a network of local chapters, and a set of guiding principles. #MeToo has none of that, and therefore it is not a coherent, cohesive thing. You cannot say things like "Me Too is good at this or bad at that" because there's no such thing as a coherent set of goals and practices for Me Too. Me Too is also far more international than BLM and it takes many different shapes locally, eg Me Too in France evolves very differently from Me Too in Sweden.

This proteiform aspect comes with advantages (flexibility, adaptability) and disadvantages (confusion, lack of clear policy focus, much hit-and-miss).
maxdancona
 
  0  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 07:37 am
@Olivier5,
Me Too is being widely used to push feminism as an ideology. You can support the aims of Black Lives Matter without supporting Black Nationalism.

This is the reason that MeToo falls along political partisan lines, even among women.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 07:55 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

MeToo is being used by a liberal faction to push a political ideology.

You saying this over and over doesn't make it true. Me Too is showing how prevalent the sexual harassment and abuse of women is by letting those who have been abused but stayed silent speak out.
maxdancona wrote:
I understand why you keep bringing Black Lives Matter into a thread about Me Too.

Hmmm, who has been tying BLM into this thread over and over? I think this is the first mention of BLM.
maxdancona wrote:
The Black Lives Matter threads went away with a whimper, compared to this thread which is still full of energy and outrage.

Let me know if you can find where I discuss BLM on this thread not in direct response to a post of yours. (As to the comment itself, BLM spawned more threads and far more posts on A2K than Me Too). It's great you support BLM, but you are confusing the state of BLM today with the state of BLM at the beginning. BLM was all about outrage, outrage at unarmed men and women being gunned down by police, outrage at a justice system that let those police walk free, outrage at a press system that painted the victims as deserving their fate if they even addressed the victims at all, outrage at a long history of everyday abuse directed at minorities by the police. That BLM was able to attract allies who could push for change represented a great evolution in the movement, but to say that BLM at its inception was this well formed, articulate movement is a rose colored, historical fiction. BLM attracted those allies by showing that the issues it was pointing out were not one off, unfortunate events. You thought that policeman in South Carolina was out of line, well here are five more videos of police killings! Me Too is similar. Sure Weinstein is a pig, but that's a one off, right? No, it happens all the time, and we need to discuss it. That BLM fits your ideology and Me Too doesn't doesn't make them dissimilar or invalidate the comparison.

You say that Me Too is just unfocused anger and no solutions, suggest some solutions. Certainly other people are thinking that way. Less unfocused anger and more solutioning would be welcome.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 08:16 am
@engineer,
Quote:
You say that Me Too is just unfocused anger and no solutions, suggest some solutions. Certainly other people are thinking that way. Less unfocused anger and more solutioning would be welcome.


This is a fair point. Since Me Too is being used to push a broader feminist narrative, they aren't able to clearly state the problems. Not stating the problems makes finding solutions very difficult.

If the problem MeToo is addressing is the abuse of power in the workplace, then there are a set of clear solutions with which most women of all political stripes (and probably most men) would agree. I accept that MeToo did a very good job of making the issue of abuse of power public... and I say this is a good thing.

I would propose to set up ways for women or men who are being abused by someone with authority to report this. And, a social movement to remove the stigma is also a good idea.

Me Too seems to be about much more than that, they pushing a much broader political and social narrative with unclear policy goals.

What do you think the MeToo movement is about? Do you limit your support to the abuse of power by someone in authority... or do you think that it is bigger than that.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 09:46 am
Focused or not, the cleansing is necessary. It will coalesce into the new norm eventually. I just hope people keep their edge long enough to stop violation of women just because they can't stop you at the moment.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 10:06 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
I just hope people keep their edge long enough to stop violation of women just because they can't stop you at the moment.


I think this shows the problem with the MeToo movement. It is vague enough that it doesn't really mean anything... or can mean anything. It ignores the primary question; at what point do adults have responsibility for themselves.

What does "they can't stop you at the moment" mean? If they can't stop you because you have a gun to their head, I would say that is rape. If they can't stop you because they are feeling some vague social pressure to not speak up... that's another thing altogether. If the problem is that women are unable to speak up for themselves, the obvious solution is to empower them. To ask people to accept that women have some inability to stand up for themselves seems to be the wrong solution. It is perpetuating gender stereotypes rather than challenging stereotypes.

My solution to the second problem is to teach my daughter to speak up for herself with confidence. I want her to feel empowered to say "No" clearly when she means "No".

I am perfectly able to suggest solutions to well-defined problems. The MeToo movement is more about pushing a political narrative than about addressing specific problems.

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 10:35 am
@engineer,
#metoo was a starting point

#timesup has taken its place in a way

__

https://www.timesupnow.com

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurayoungkin/2018/02/12/why-this-strategy-ceo-is-optimistic-about-the-impact-of-metoo-and-timesup/#1ac0ce42708e

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-lefty-critique-of-timesup-is-tired-and-self-defeating/

Quote:
This was an action organized by and for women of color activists that reached millions. What’s wrong with that?


Quote:
#TimesUp is grounded in a progressive movement where racial justice, feminism, and workers’ rights meet. For years, organizations have worked to change the national narrative around work, violence, immigration, policing, and many other issues. Understanding that policy and politics were inadequate to the transformational task at hand, they added cultural change to their toolkit. Through praxis, they’ve developed a theory of how to create cultural flash points and forged strong relationships with artists. The National Domestic Workers Alliance, for example, has been doing Golden Globes watch parties for several years and has made a big investment in giving women entertainers like Amy Poehler a chance to support domestic workers. The Restaurant Opportunities Centers United has connected with foodies and celebrity chefs. Tarana Burke, who created the #MeToo hashtag a decade ago, took advantage of the current moment, to historic effect.


https://mashable.com/2018/02/06/times-up-fundraising-help/#PNS3P4dRgaqw

Quote:
In a panel discussion at the MAKERS Conference Monday, women involved with spearheading Time's Up discussed the purpose behind the initiative and its legal defense fund and revealed how much impact the #MeToo movement and Time's Up initiative is having on Hollywood and beyond. Tina Tchen, the lawyer at the helm of Time's Up's legal defense fund, revealed that the initiative raised $20 million in just over a month and has received help from over 200 lawyers.


Quote:
Tchen stressed that the fund is not just for women in Hollywood, it's meant for men and women from all walks of life who need legal help when speaking up against injustices in the workplace and beyond.

"We have had over 1,000 requests for help in a month, so the need is clearly there from all industries — farmworkers, hotel workers, steelworkers," Tchen said.

The panel, moderated by Ava Duvernay, consisted of women representing a wide range of Hollywood and the Time's Up initiative, including agent Maha Dakhil, actresses Rashida Jones and Natalie Portman, director Melina Matsoukas, attorney Nina Shaw, and writer/director/producer/comedian Jill Soloway.

"Everybody in the movement acknowledges that there is no change unless you bring every single person along who has spent time being marginalized, harassed, assaulted," Jones said.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 10:39 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
#TimesUp is grounded in a progressive movement where racial justice, feminism, and workers’ rights meet.


Thank you EhBeth! This is exactly what I am talking about. This is a partisan political movement aimed at pushing an ideological narrative.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 10:51 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
more solutioning would be welcome.


an interesting through-line is that some of the same women of colour have been involved with #occupy, #blm, #metoo and #timesup. They've learned about organizing and fund-raising over the years. Rumour has it that they've been involved in recent get-out-the-vote projects in places like Virginia and Alabama. I've got more reading to do in that area.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 11:44 am
absolute fury erupting from young women in my dance world over this right now (like this very minute irl)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle/family-relationships/schools-decision-to-refuse-girls-right-to-say-no-if-boys-ask-them-to-dance-challenged-by-pupils-parent/ar-BBIZdka

Quote:
Her daughter explained that teachers had told the students, aged between 11 and 12, that they had to say “yes” when someone asked them dance.

In disbelief, Ms Richard said that she must have misunderstood what they were saying.

However, after speaking to the school she soon realised that the statement was accurate.

“The teacher said she can’t. She has to say yes. She has to accept and I said, 'Excuse me',” Ms Richard told Fox 13.

Shocked by the policy, the mother took her concerns to the school principal but was simply told that that’s just how they organise their dances.

Lane Findlay with the Weber School District confirmed that it is in fact a rule,


Quote:
After Fox 13 posted the story on its Facebook page, hordes of alarmed parents commented in agreement.

Many were worried that teaching children to believe that “no” is an unacceptable answer could make them vulnerable.

“This is a terrible policy,” one person wrote.

“Inclusiveness is not nearly as important as teaching children that they have no obligation to allow anyone to touch them or invade their personal space if it makes them uncomfortable.”

Another agreed adding, “This sends the wrong message. Anyone should have the right to say 'no.' Teaching children how to say no respectfully is a more important lesson.”

As it stands, Kanesville Elementary say that the rule remains in place.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 11:49 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
absolute fury erupting from young women in my dance world over this right now


I am going to start a new thread about this. Absolute fury is a little overboard. The outrage of people inside the ideological bubble is the problem. If you look objectively at what actually happened, it is not so clear.

https://able2know.org/topic/445862-1
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 12:07 pm
@ehBeth,
Why celebrate Valentine day at school in the first place? The guy is a Catholic martyr, if memory serves. Separation of church (or merchandizing) and state, anyone?

I also would like to know if their inclusive dancing policy allows boys to ask boys to dance, girls ask girls, and girls ask boys. Or is it just boys that are allowed to ask another student to dance, and they can ask only girls?.. The latter would amount to little more than shoveling a highly normative, mandatory and merchandized version of heterosexuality down pre-pubescent throats.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 12:10 pm
@Olivier5,
Valentines day in the US has absolutely nothing to do with religion. It is not like Christimas or Easter where the religious meanings are always in the background even in secular settings. My daughter's progressive school (in a city that is often referred to as the People's Republic of Cambridge, MA) has a rule that if you give a gift to anyone in class, you need to give gifts to everyone.

ehBeth
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 12:15 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
I also would like to know if their inclusive dancing policy allows boys to ask boys to dance, girls ask girls, and girls ask boys. Or is it just boys that are allowed to ask another student to dance, and they can ask only girls?.


does it matter?

children aren't allowed to say no

doesn't matter what gender the child is - they should all be allowed to/encouraged to say no to things they don't want happening to their bodies

excerpt from a friend's thread in my fb feed

Quote:
This is literally an abuse of human rights.

This is extremely unhealthy and unsafe!

What the actual ****.

I would absolutely pull my child from the school.

Yes, this is exactly what the world needs now: teaching girls they have no right to say no, and boys that they don't need to find healthy ways to cope with normal rejection.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 12:22 pm
@ehBeth,
I am curious if the hang up is just about dancing, or if it applies to other activities as well. My daughter has to find a partner in Karate class to do stretching, sometimes she finds her own partner and sometimes she is assigned one. I have never seen her, or anyone else, say "no".

If you are always looking for outrage, you will often find it. I don't see this 6th grade dance as anything but an overreaction.

Inclusion is a progressive value. If the minority kids and overweight kids are constantly excluded from activities that all of the other students are doing... that is a problem.

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2018 03:01 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
This is literally an abuse of human rights.


This made me laugh.

I am trying to remember, I am pretty sure we had to take dance as part of gym class. I don't exactly remember how they made sure that all of the kids were included in the activity. If you are going to make kids dance in class, you are at some point going to have to say... "you are dancing with you".

Kids are made to do all sorts of things in school, from math to kickball. Calling this an "abuse of human rights" is a little excessive. This is what they are getting are getting all worked up about. If you are looking for outrage, you can find it pretty much anywhere.

http://cultureballroomdance.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Liberty_Sunburst.90105129_std.jpg
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Thu 15 Feb, 2018 01:26 am
@ehBeth,
It's important. There is no educational value I can think of to a Valentine celebration at school, unless the school wants to teach heterosexuality, by imparting its rituals (valentine day, dancing). And they do it under the guise of "inclusiveness".... What about the kids with homosexual tendencies? What about Muslim kids, the parent of whom may not appreciate a christian tradition being forced on their children?

In short, schools should not celebrate Valentine day, period. Teaching adherence to a commercial, heterosexual and christian version of romance is not 'inclusive' by any measure. Rather, they should teach kids about human sexuality and the principle of consent.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Thu 15 Feb, 2018 01:33 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Valentines day in the US has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Still, Muslim or Jewish kids / parents could validly object to their school organizing a celebration of love under the patronage of a christian martyr...

Quote:
My daughter's progressive school (in a city that is often referred to as the People's Republic of Cambridge, MA) has a rule that if you give a gift to anyone in class, you need to give gifts to everyone.

That's DISCOURAGING Valentine celebration, cause nobody wants to give chocolates to the whole class. So it's ok with me.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  3  
Thu 15 Feb, 2018 02:42 am
@Olivier5,
Maybe not Kiss and Tell........I don't think I would have shared such a creepy story and certainly not when I was years younger. I think it belongs in the 'holy ****, does he really think this a turn on??" But, I don't think it should be included in the narrative, some men are clumsy, a little clueless, inexperienced and they shouldn't be shamed for being oblivious during an attempt at seduction.

I wish this had never been included in the #MeToo narrative. However, the details were unsettling, and I could do without such a story. I don't want to hear about other peoples hygiene challenges, or bathroom habits and I really don't want the image of a completely nonsensical attempt at 'intimacy' or whatever you call it.....stuck in my head, so I have deleted it from memory.
 

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