Me Too

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

There are several big differences between MeToo and BLM.

1) BLM has specific policy goals including increased accountability for police officers, body cameras and training. The MeToo movement is about expressing anger without any clear, reasonable or legal policy goals.

Not so different. MeToo and BLM are both a bunch of nutcases.

BLM's goal is that police officers be barred from defending themselves when a black person tries to murder them.

That goal may well be clear, but it isn't legal or reasonable.

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@Olivier5,

I think this is a cultural difference I just telling you how things are in the United States. Arguing about whether reality makes sense is silly.

My kids school is in Cambridge MA, one of the most progressive politically correct communities there is. It is a school that has significant Jewish, Muslim, and Hindu communities as well as a bunch of us liberal Atheists. We are worried about everything. We have a holiday tree that people still complain about. We don't let kids dress up for Halloween so no one will get offended. We give Muslim and Hindu holidays off and the school and curriculum is scrubbed for any political incorrect trigger that might offend everyone.

And yet we celebrate Valentines. No one here gives any religious significance to Valentines day. It is a day of friendship and love and kids exchange cards and treats from kindergarten.

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@glitterbag,

Quote:

some men are clumsy, a little clueless, inexperienced and they shouldn't be shamed for being oblivious during an attempt at seduction.

While no woman has ever been clumsy or clueless, right?

If you galls know so much about it, why don't you take the lead in dating and *******?

If 'Grace' wanted something else than what he was offering, she should have asked for it. Instead she behaved as a clueless yet judgmental punk, saying nothing, waiting for him to figure it all out... That's facile.

And that was a kiss-and-tell story alright. The idea once was that people's sexual lives deserved some privacy, but apparently it's now fine and mellow to get your front lawn grazzed by a celebrity or another, give him some head, and then the next day tell the whole world on the Internet that you had that most terrible, horrible night...

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

And yet we celebrate Valentines. No one here gives any religious significance to Valentines day. It is a day of friendship and love and kids exchange cards and treats from kindergarten.

What's the educational value of Valentines day, may I ask??? I understand MLK day for instance, and why schools in the US make such a big deal out of it. My own kids went through the drill and can tell you all about the bus boycott and the civil rights movement etc... It was a seminal struggle for the US, that kids need to know about for obvious reasons. But Valentines day? What's the point of schools celebrating it?

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

doesn't matter what gender the child is

Why is it then that you and your dacing friends focus only on the girls, in a very sexist manner? What about the boy's right to say "No"? It doesn't matter?

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@Olivier5,

The MeToo movement is perpetuating gender stereotypes in some troubling ways. Men in a relationship are supposed to be caring and responsive, attentive to her needs. Women in a MeToo relationship are supposed to only care about their wants and feelings.

The MeToo movement is pushing the time worn tropes of Paternal man caring for his woman, and the childlike innocent woman.

If you want equality... the expectations put on men and women should be the same.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

This argument about Valentines day is a silly argument. It is celebrated in the US as a day of friendship and love with the passing of cards and gifts. There is nothing more to this. It is what it is and no one (at least at my liberal school gets triggered at the slightest provocation) is upset.

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@Olivier5,

Could you ask EhBeth what she would do when the one Black boy in a White classroom is always left out?

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

The MeToo movement is pushing the time worn tropes of Paternal man caring for his woman, and the childlike innocent woman.

That's the main point made by Deneuve, Stein and all the other women who expressed misgivings about Me Too over the past few months: don't rob women of their agency under the guise of feminism.

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@maxdancona,

If kids want to share cards and stuff, that's fine with me. But no public school in France could get away with investing school resources (teachers and students time) in something that has no educational value whatsoever.

Our schools invest in sexual education instead, as they should. At age 10 i knew the basics of human reproduction. The school never taught me how to dance though...

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@Olivier5,

Those are cultural differences that might be interesting for another thread. I don't think they are relevant here. (Although I can never resist post a relevant Monty Python video)

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@maxdancona,

This is not a thread about America. Beth's story was about Canada, for one thing... For another, i don't hold a US-centric world view, and my interest for US politics is plumeting at the moment. The current cluster **** in Washington is not even entertaining anymore. It's just depressing, boring, best ignored.

What's fascinating me in Me Too is precisely that it's global, or trying to be. And the cultural differences it meets here or there are not details; they say a lot about what different societies consider important or not.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Quote:

What's fascinating me in Me Too is precisely that it's global, or trying to be.

We Americans have this annoying trait. We think that the American Point of View is an universal that should be accepted regardless of culture. You may have noticed this.

MeToo is global the way that "Have a Coke and a Smile!" is global. This is a particularly American movement reflecting the uptightness Americans have long had with Sex trying to push itself on to the rest of the world.

Most American feminists have a problem talking about cultural differences in how gender is viewed. The problem with Hijab is just one example of this.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

MeToo is global the way that "Have a Coke and a Smile!" is global.

I never heard of "Have a Coke and a Smile!", and have travelled all over the world, so I can certify it's not global at all.

Don't be parochial over this. Me Too is trully global, and far more important than any same-old same-old "us vs them" national politics, American ones included.

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@Olivier5,

One person in that very long thread on fb (that I posted a small selection from) mentioned the children's genders.

As I noted in my post - and in my fb comment (which is not in my selection ) , gender is not the issue. Teaching all children that they have the right to say yes or no is what matters.

I do not use male/female, boy/girl in those fb threads as it is exclusionary language.

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@Olivier5,

The issue is the school dance, not that it's being held on Valentines Day.

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@ehBeth,

The article you linked to also made it look like it's all about them poor girls forced to dance with boys they don't like, totally ignoring the fact that under the school policy, boys too might be forced to dance with girls they don't like... Apparently nobody cares about that aspect.

Another issue is that apparently, the school dance has to be heterosexual. Why? Is that inclusive?

Why oh why should school administrators organise some sort of mandatory heterosexual dance party for 10 years old, on St Valentine day or any other day? That sounds gross on so many levels. If any of my teachers had tried to force me to dance with anyone, i would have told them to mind their own ******* business.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

boys too might be forced to dance with girls they don't like... Apparently nobody cares about that aspect.

many parents did comment on this as well

the original complaint came from one parent whose child - a girl - was upset

other parents have since complained

very few people think it is only about girls being allowed to say no

___

it's interesting as I considered not putting in the comment from one colleague who did mention girls - but realized that it would be useful to see who would react to that instead of the greater issue

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Another issue is that apparently, the school dance has to be heterosexual.

do we know that? I certainly don't know that.

I suspect it's the case but that suspicion has to do with my personal biases about Utah.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

If any of my teachers had tried to force me to dance with anyone, i would have told them to mind their own ******* business.

this was actually a pretty big subthread in our fb discussion as a couple of people talked about what it had been like to be forced to dance with people when they were children - what happened when they talked to teachers/principals/parents about it

seems like at least some teachers had absolutely no qualms about making fun of children who didn't want to be touched by people they didn't know

1 Reply

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