Me Too

What does the MeToo movement do with female perpetrators? We are now getting female perpetrators accused of harrassment, most recently a female Congresswoman accused of harassing a male staffer. There is strong evidence that there are far more female perpetrators than people think, it seems likely to me that a third of perpetrators are female... and why wouldn't there be.

What's frustrating is this strange mixture between gender politics and rape. The stories that don't fit the political narrative are ignored. The stories that do fit are all mixed together to tell a single narrative that combines a whole set of political issues.

I wish that sexual abuse, in particular, could be separated from gender politics.

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@maxdancona,

Politics are a way to solve problems. To want a separate discussion on sexual assaults, detached from 'gender politics', strikes me as unproductive. It'd be like to discuss a problem without exploring potential solutions to the problem.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

It'd be like to discuss a problem without exploring potential solutions to the problem.

Can you give me an example of a potential solution that has been explored? I see a lot of anger being used to advance a broad political agenda. If anyone is suggesting a specific policy suggestion that would make things better, I would be happy to discuss it. That isn't what is happening.

This movement cuts very strongly along political lines. A liberal/Democratic man is 31% more likely than a conservative/Republican woman. Women who criticize or question the politics of the MeToo movement are facing personal attacks. This isn't about men and women... it is largely about liberal versus conservative.

I am upset that stories that don't fit the political narrative are being ignored. Sexual assault isn't being used by the MeToo movement. to solve problems, it is being used to push a political agenda.

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@maxdancona,

You're so easily upset... There's been much disagreement on Me Too expressed by women themselves, and that's good and healthy.

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Quote:

WHY I AM NOW AFRAID OF MEN
BY OLIVE POMETSEY, GQ
1 day ago

“Listen, to apologise, let me get you two girls a drink. What are your names, anyway?” I scrutinise my friend’s face to try to work out what she’s thinking. Are these guys safe? After all, he’d only drunkenly stumbled against our table: that’s not really a serious offence. “Jennifer,” she replies casually. Her name isn’t Jennifer. ****, what’s my name? There’s a painful pause until I unconvincingly settle on “Stephanie”, which is shortly followed by a roar of laughter from the surrounding men. “Well, I believe her, but you are notcalled Stephanie.”

But now I am called Stephanie, that is, if you’re an unfamiliar man who approaches me and asks my name. I fumbled during that encounter, but I’m now armed with a fake name, an apparently essential weapon in a world where it seems no man can be trusted. That isn’t the only artillery I carry: keys transform into knuckle-dusters as I walk from the tube station to my home at night and my phone’s camera app is en gardeto capture evidence should anything actually happen. That way, if I do get attacked, at least then people will believe me. Is this paranoid behaviour? Maybe, but in the midst of the #MeToo movement, is it really unwarranted?

I’ve always known that men can be dangerous and I’ve always been careful, but post-Weinstein, as more and more men are exposed as sex pests, I’ve found myself feeling genuinely scared of the opposite sex. The other day a man smiled at me on the tube, in an almost empty carriage, and I automatically assumed he was going to attack me. On another occasion, the man sitting opposite me looked particularly shifty and anxious, so, naturally, I assumed he was planning something untoward, of which I’d be the victim. I tried to convince myself I was being ridiculous and that he was probably just anxious because he was running late, but I decided to get off and change carriages anyway. You know, just in case. Before I’d have smiled back or simply ignored any odd behaviour, but now it seems that just as men have been collectively conditioned to objectify women, I’ve been conditioned to fear them.

Even though an increasing number of women are finding the courage to come forward and talk about their experiences of sexual assault, I can’t help but wonder how many are still biting their tongue. I’ve heard the men around me talk about how the public shaming of Aziz Ansari has made them look back and reflect on their past sexual encounters, but the same can be said for myself. Over the past few months I’ve realised that, since my teens, I’ve experienced treatment at the hands of men and boys that is simply not OK. At the time, my friends and I thought these kinds of events were funny and, if anything, embarrassing for the males involved, but looking back now, it feels deeply unsettling to properly assess those situations and, despite witnessing other women speak out, I now feel embarrassed discussing it.

How many other women are in the same boat? And how many other misogynistic, entitled men are slipping under the radar as a consequence? It’s from this sentiment that my fear is born. It feels as though no man can be trusted and, even if someone does seem like a decent person, is staying on the same tube carriage for the sake of wanting to believe that there are actually some respectable men in the world really worth the risk?

And yet, in trying to stay safe, I realise that I’m potentially overreacting. While I know #NotAllMen is a pretty anti-feminist hashtag that rivals #AllLivesMatter for the “Most Unproductive Campaign That Turns Attention Away From The Real Problem” award, I am also fully aware that, actually, not all men should be feared. But now, after countless men, including those I’d previously admired, have been revealed to be false allies, how can I possibly sort the bad guys from the good? It’s best just to be suspicious of them all. You know, just in case. [...]

More:
http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/metoo-im-afraid-of-men

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

This is an interesting article... for one thing it shows one of the negative consequences of the MeToo movement. Making women afraid is not a good thing. In the Aziz Ansari story, the woman failed to communicate clearly because she was afraid. Fear is a part of the problem, not the solution.

Feminist and anti-feminist are largely synonyms for liberal and conservative. This is a political divide. One ideological side is politicizing rape to push an overarching narrative against what they see as the "Patriarchy".

A lot of men support MeToo because it matches their political ideology. Almost all of them are politically liberal. And a lot of women reject this political ideology. This is nothing like Black Lives Matter.

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@maxdancona,

I kind of feel bad for the author, who seems to live in constant fear of half of humanity. Must be hard, debilitating. But 1) it's her life, and i am not her therapist, so it's her problem not mine; and 2) it doesn't fit my own experience: women around me -- in Italy, that is, a country where admitedly Me Too did not resonate as much as in France or the US -- don't behave like that at all. From what I can tell, they are as smiling and courtuous as ever... Evidently #NotAllWomen are affected by this blanket fear of all men.

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@Olivier5,

One of the most surprising thing coming out of MeToo is the idea that women feel "pressured" not to say "No" clearly. In the case of Aziz this came out clearly, but in other places as well. Feminist writers are talking about the social pressure felt by women to comply.

I teach my daughter to say clearly and strongly "Stop, I don't want this". This seems like a reasonable thing to do. I want her to be confident and assertive. And, yes, she has the responsibility to communicate.

There is an ideological principle that teaching women to say "No" is somehow unacceptable. Feminism sometime perpetuates gender roles rather than confronting them.

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@maxdancona,

Sometimes we don't know what's good for us... I once said "no" to a girl for about two years. She was not harrassing me but almost; ie she kept going with her courtship. Until one day her friends and mine ploted to put us two in the same bed at the same time... Then nature spoke. She was so freaking hot. Why oh why did I reject for so long?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

A lot of men support MeToo because it matches their political ideology. Almost all of them are politically liberal. And a lot of women reject this political ideology. This is nothing like Black Lives Matter.

I think is it very similar to BLM. Both efforts are trying to make a complacent majority see a problem that has been there all along, but that many people dismiss as terrible, but just something that happens rarely instead of being commonplace. I don't doubt that the majority of people understood that black men were occasionally mistreated by police just as the majority understood that sometimes bosses or other people in power behave badly. What both of these movements have successfully shown is that these aren't rare, they are common and we need to be aware. As for men supporting Me Too because of political ideology, that is completely backwards. I support BLM because I believe that all people should be treated equal by law enforcement and that police should focus on "protect and serve" not "enforce the peace". I believe in Me Too because I believe women should be free from sexual harassment and assault. Because I believe in those things, people might choose to label me as liberal. I certainly don't sit around thinking if I want to be liberal, I must support these issues. Also, you make a repeated point that some women reject Me Too. Many women rejected the suffrage movement's demand for the right to vote too. That seems really stupid today, but I'm sure they had their reasons at the time. My thought on that is the same as the one I stated on numerous other threads on civil rights: if you want to give up your rights, that is your business, but you can't give up mine. It really doesn't matter that some women are OK with harassment or assault, it doesn't mean that that makes it OK for those who aren't.

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I understand now. If you are a conservative you think it's okay to abuse women. Only a liberal can see there's a problem. Thanks for enlightening us, max.

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@engineer,

There are several big differences between MeToo and BLM.

1) BLM has specific policy goals including increased accountability for police officers, body cameras and training. The MeToo movement is about expressing anger without any clear, reasonable or legal policy goals.

2) Support for BLM does not involve demonizing people based on race or gender. It is asking for specific practices to stop. You hear very clearly from the leaders of the movement that the respect the rights of police officers and the need for them to do their job.

3) MeToo is split split along party lines, not along gender lines. There a significant number of women, maybe 40% who don't agree with the political goals of the leaders of the MeToo. There are very few African Americans who don't support the goals of BLM. It is true that African Americans tend to be Democrats, but maybe that is the point.

4) BLM offers a dialog with police. It doesn't discount everything that police are saying, nor does it silence the concerns of police for their own safety.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

If you are a conservative you think it's okay to abuse women. Only a liberal can see there's a problem.

You are a liberal man. Are you willing to listen to the voices of conservative women?

If liberal men are only willing to respect women who agree with them... that kind of defeats the purpose.

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@maxdancona,

BTW, it's also important for women, including your daughter, to feel comfortable saying "Yes" and telling their partner what they want, positively. What turns them on and off, not just the off part.

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@maxdancona,

I am thinking of more

- BLM activists don't tell White victims of police brutality to "shut up".

- The BLM movement realize Black Police officers are sometimes perpetrators of police brutality. This doesn't threaten the political ideology and as such they don't frantically discredit these stories.

- The BLM stories pass the "Equality Test" If you switch the races, and have the police officer be Black, and the Victim be White... the story would be viewed as a crime and an abuse of power. In any of the MeToo stories, if you switch the genders and have an aggressive female pursuing a male victim, it completely changes the story and many times wouldn't even be viewed as anything wrong.

Imagine if Aziz Ansari wrote a piece about how a woman aggressively tried to push him into sex and he felt like he couldn't leave.

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@Olivier5,

Of course Olivier.

What I tell me daughter on that front is the same thing I told my sons.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

1) BLM has specific policy goals including increased accountability for police officers, body cameras and training. The MeToo movement is about expressing anger without any clear, reasonable or legal policy goals.

I think those BLM policy goals came after the movement. The movement was just trying to call attention to the repeated killing of black people by police. That the movement actually evolved into concrete actions is great, but it certainly didn't start that way. My recollection was it was outrage, Outrage, backlash, OUTRAGE, Backlash, discussion, BACKLASH, discussion, BACKLASH, BACKLASH. I don't think we are that far on the Me Too movement yet. You've routinely explained what the Me Too movement is about. That is like asking Oralloy to explain the gun control movement. You should consider that you might not have that right.

maxdancona wrote:

2) Support for BLM does not involve demonizing other people.

Really? There are several commentators on A2K and I think even some specific threads that say that BLM is all about demonizing police. And taking a knee for the national anthem is all about demonizing the military. If you think Me Too is all about demonizing men, why wouldn't you support their position equally?

maxdancona wrote:

3) MeToo is split split along party lines, not along gender lines.

I think that is a complete simplification. Much like BLM, although there are Democrats that buy into the entire All Lives Matter counter movement and there are Republicans who see the point. That is true about Me Too also. I've posted a couple of links to this thread of prominent conservatives who have had Me Too moments.

maxdancona wrote:

4) BLM offers a dialog with police. It doesn't discount everything that police are saying, nor does it silence the concerns of police for their own safety.

Likewise Me Too offers a dialog. That is what this thread is about as well as the back and forth we're seeing in the editorial press. You are participating in that dialog and denying it is happening at the same time.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

- BLM activists don't tell White victims of police brutality to "shut up".

You do realize that no one here or in any forum or editorial I have seen has told male victims of sexual assault or harassment to shut up, right? BLM activists didn't focus on white victims of police brutality, but that doesn't mean that they wanted them to shut up.

maxdancona wrote:

- The BLM movement realize Black Police officers are sometimes perpetrators of police brutality. This doesn't threaten the political ideology and as such they don't frantically discredit these stories.

And Me Too activists are completely good understanding that women also commit sexual assault. Edgar started this thread with his own story.

maxdancona wrote:

- The BLM stories pass the "Equality Test" If you switch the races, and have the police officer be Black, and the Victim be White... the story would be viewed as a crime and an abuse of power. In any of the MeToo stories, if you switch the genders and have an aggressive female pursuing a male victim, it completely changes the story and many times wouldn't even be viewed as anything wrong.

I know you fully believe this narrative, but it is completely wrong. There is nothing in Me Too that excuses women aggressors. Find someone here who excuses them.

maxdancona wrote:

Imagine if Aziz Ansari wrote a piece about how a woman aggressively tried to push him into sex and he felt like he couldn't leave.

I imagine it would be very well received by both genders, but there would be some people of both genders (although likely more guys) who would scoff. In other words, it would be just like any other Me Too article.

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@engineer,

The Aziz Ansari story does not belong to #MeToo since there's neither a "Me" in it nor a sexual assault. It deserves another hastag. #KissAndTell ?

1 Reply

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