14
   

Me Too

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Wed 31 Jan, 2018 05:41 pm
@maxdancona,
I knew you were acting to be a drag force on Me Too. One in a field of landmines to be cleared.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Wed 31 Jan, 2018 05:49 pm
@edgarblythe,
Me Too is actually pretty much dead. It was mainly killed by outrage fatigue and by Aziz Ansari, and by the fact that so many women now see it as excessive.

In truth it did some good. The workplace abuses that came to light will lead to a change, and that it a good thing. The puritanical view of sexuality will not stick... every time a movement has tried to regulate human sexuality, from the Puritans to the Victorian era to the 1950s, it has failed.

The ideological followers want to push this to more and more absurd extremes. They won't get too far. And, they run a risk of screwing things up for the Democrats-- again (ideological feminists are one reason that we have president Trump.)
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 1 Feb, 2018 03:23 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Me Too is actually pretty much dead. It was mainly killed by outrage fatigue and by Aziz Ansari, and by the fact that so many women now see it as excessive.

No doubt that Babe.net's kiss-a-celebrity-and-tell story on Ansari sucked a lot of wind away from the MeToo sails.

For a hashtag to become a 'movement' takes more than just outrage. It takes focus, discipline, organisation and a manifesto of sorts, to say what the movement is about and whit it is NOT about. #MeToo has none of that, so it's wide open to manipulation and diversions. Anyone can piggy back on it with stories about the sexual lives of the rich and famous, or puritanical rants, or just slander.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Thu 1 Feb, 2018 10:00 am
@Olivier5,
One problem with this movement is that that to support women now means demonizing men. The civil Rights movement didn't demonize White people. The gay rights movement wasn't focussed on straight people.

The woman's rights movement has become focussed on what they think of men.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 1 Feb, 2018 12:03 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
One problem with this movement is that that to support women now means demonizing men. The civil Rights movement didn't demonize White people. [...]
The woman's rights movement has become focussed on what they think of men.

Indeed. Some of the posts and blog entries I read in the past weeks have been painful to read. But you know my answer to the problem: let women initiate intimacy. If it hurts them so bad when we try to do it, let them shoulder the responsibility of initiation.

To assume leadership in courtship is only a baby step further from saying an "enthusiastic yes". They can do it.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Thu 1 Feb, 2018 02:08 pm
I've posted this somewhere else, but I had to post it here too. The Mash Report totally nail the prima donna hysteria of men's right's groups.

maxdancona
 
  -1  
Thu 1 Feb, 2018 03:03 pm
@izzythepush,
If it is so Easy... Lena Dunham is still confused.

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/lena-dunham-apology-girls-writer-murray-miller-1202618404/

And Hillary Clinton remains confused.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Thu 1 Feb, 2018 03:05 pm
@maxdancona,
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2018 02:26 am
#MeToo movement means changes for Valentine's Day romance

Barbara Goldberg, FEBRUARY 1, 2018

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The #MeToo movement is putting a chill on romance this Valentine’s Day, and a deep freeze on what for years has been a route to marriage: the office love affair, according to relationship experts. [...]

#MeToo has dampened one traditional route to dating: Office romances. The percentage of U.S. workers saying they were in one fell to a 10-year-low of 36 percent, according to a Nov. 28-Dec. 20 online Harris Poll of 809 private sector employees sponsored by recruitment site CareerBuilder.

That was down from 41 percent a year earlier, a statistically significant drop in a poll with a 3.45 percent margin of error.

“The #MeToo movement is splashing cold water on whatever embers of romance are struggling to survive between men and women,” said Dr. Carole Lieberman, a psychiatrist and author of “Bad Boys: Why We Love Them.”

Co-workers who start dating stand a good chance of staying together: 31 percent of office romantic relationships lead to marriage, the survey showed.

Given the allegations of sexual assault by prominent men, workers would be wise to proceed slowly on workplace flirtations and ensure that their approaches are open and consented to, said Carrie Lukas, author of “The Politically Incorrect Guide to Women, Sex, and Feminism.”

“Safe romantic gestures - candy, cards, compliments and flowers - might be construed as aggressive and harassment,” said Lukas.

Reporting by Barbara Goldberg; Editing by Susan Thomas

© 2018 Reuters. All Rights Reserved.

0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  3  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 07:03 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I've posted this somewhere else, but I had to post it here too. The Mash Report totally nail the prima donna hysteria of men's right's groups.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMfStd3v330[/youtube]


She's very funny, totally nailed it
izzythepush
 
  2  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 07:18 am
@glitterbag,
She's really funny. She used to be on Thronecast, a show for fans of Game of Thrones, but she wasn't allowed to be herself, and was very anodyne. My opinion of her changed dramatically when she joined the Mash report.

I've posted her piece on the Trump/Morgan interview here.

https://able2know.org/topic/355218-2053#post-6590835
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 11:25 am
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/its-the-same-as-it-ever-was-for-women-inpolitics/article37829238/

Quote:
I often berate myself for not having had the courage to speak out 30 years ago. And I'm convinced many men shared the view that this was wrong. But we all came to accept that this was a reality we could not alter. The status quo was too useful and too comfortable for too many. I doubt the offenders even see the effect their behaviour has on the lives, careers and psyches of the women they take for granted.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 11:34 am
@ehBeth,

https://thewalrus.ca/if-everyone-knew-about-the-harassment-problem-in-canadian-politics-why-did-nobody-act/

Quote:
More women are going to come forward, and people currently in power need to create processes and avenues to hear and investigate complaints so victims aren’t subject to the chaotic and imperfect justice of trial-by-media and mob rule. Putting more women in positions of power is important but also not enough.

“It’s dangerous to just assume that by putting more women at the table you’re automatically going to have a culture change, because then that puts the onus on women, solely. There’s an assumption in there that they have to change a culture that is detrimental to them,” Rempel said in her speech. “How come men aren’t dealing with this? How come you don’t have more men saying this is wrong?”

The answer to that seems clear: for too many, it still isn’t.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 01:03 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/04/opinion/metoo-law-legal-system.html

#MeToo Has Done What the Law Could Not

Quote:
The #MeToo movement is accomplishing what sexual harassment law to date has not.

This mass mobilization against sexual abuse, through an unprecedented wave of speaking out in conventional and social media, is eroding the two biggest barriers to ending sexual harassment in law and in life: the disbelief and trivializing dehumanization of its victims.

Sexual harassment law — the first law to conceive sexual violation in inequality terms — created the preconditions for this moment. Yet denial by abusers and devaluing of accusers could still be reasonably counted on by perpetrators to shield their actions.

Many survivors realistically judged reporting pointless. Complaints were routinely passed off with some version of “she wasn’t credible” or “she wanted it.” I kept track of this in cases of campus sexual abuse over decades; it typically took three to four women testifying that they had been violated by the same man in the same way to even begin to make a dent in his denial. That made a woman, for credibility purposes, one-fourth of a person.

Even when she was believed, nothing he did to her mattered as much as what would be done to him if his actions against her were taken seriously. His value outweighed her sexualized worthlessness. His career, reputation, mental and emotional serenity and assets counted. Hers didn’t. In some ways, it was even worse to be believed and not have what he did matter. It meant she didn’t matter.

These dynamics of inequality have preserved the system in which the more power a man has, the more sexual access he can get away with compelling.

It is widely thought that when something is legally prohibited, it more or less stops. This may be true for exceptional acts, but it is not true for pervasive practices like sexual harassment, including rape, that are built into structural social hierarchies. Equal pay has been the law for decades and still does not exist. Racial discrimination is nominally illegal in many forms but is still widely practiced against people of color. If the same cultural inequalities are permitted to operate in law as in the behavior the law prohibits, equalizing attempts — such as sexual harassment law — will be systemically resisted.

This logjam, which has long paralyzed effective legal recourse for sexual harassment, is finally being broken. Structural misogyny, along with sexualized racism and class inequalities, is being publicly and pervasively challenged by women’s voices. The difference is, power is paying attention.

Powerful individuals and entities are taking sexual abuse seriously for once and acting against it as never before. No longer liars, no longer worthless, today’s survivors are initiating consequences none of them could have gotten through any lawsuit — in part because the laws do not permit relief against individual perpetrators, but more because they are being believed and valued as the law seldom has. Women have been saying these things forever. It is the response to them that has changed.

Revulsion against harassing behavior — in this case, men with power refusing to be associated with it — could change workplaces and schools. It could restrain repeat predators as well as the occasional and casual exploiters that the law so far has not. Shunning perpetrators as sex bigots who take advantage of the vulnerabilities of inequality could transform society. It could change rape culture.

Sexual harassment law can grow with #MeToo. Taking #MeToo’s changing norms into the law could — and predictably will — transform the law as well. Some practical steps could help capture this moment. Institutional or statutory changes could include prohibitions or limits on various forms of secrecy and nontransparency that hide the extent of sexual abuse and enforce survivor isolation, such as forced arbitration, silencing nondisclosure agreements even in cases of physical attacks and multiple perpetration, and confidential settlements. A realistic statute of limitations for all forms of discrimination, including sexual harassment, is essential. Being able to sue individual perpetrators and their enablers, jointly with institutions, could shift perceived incentives for this behavior. The only legal change that matches the scale of this moment is an Equal Rights Amendment, expanding the congressional power to legislate against sexual abuse and judicial interpretations of existing law, guaranteeing equality under the Constitution for all.

But it is #MeToo, this uprising of the formerly disregarded, that has made untenable the assumption that the one who reports sexual abuse is a lying slut, and that is changing everything already. Sexual harassment law prepared the ground, but it is today’s movement that is shifting gender hierarchy’s tectonic plates.

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 01:08 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
so victims aren’t subject to the chaotic and imperfect justice of trial-by-media and mob rule


This phrase made me chuckle... the word "victims" here refers to the women who are accusing men of sexual assault; in other words the people perpetrating the "mob rule".

I love irony.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 01:15 pm
The problem with this movement is that it is not really about gender, it is about politics. This is largely a political movement, that is resisted by a large number of women, to affect a "cultural change" that many people, men and women alike don't want.

Quote:
According to October polling data sorted for me by the Pew Research Center, Democratic men were 31 points more likely than Republican women to say the “country has not gone far enough on women’s rights.” In both surveys, the gender gap within parties was small: Republican women and Republican men answered roughly the same way as did Democratic women and Democratic men. But the gap between parties—between both Democratic men and women and Republican men and women—was large.


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/the-partisanship-of-feminism/548423/

If you have a general discussion about sexual harassment in the workplace, you are going to get a widespread support. The problem is that at the core of these claims is a political ideology that people are likely to resist with good reason.

A cultural change in a democracy can't be driven by a partisan ideology. And that is the basic frustration felt by feminists is because they seem to believe that people must accept what they are saying as truth.

The word "conversation" has been changed to mean "shut up and listen to what we have to say". That is not a good way to change a culture.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 02:08 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

The problem with this movement is


it's not about Max.

There you go, I've managed to sum it all up into one salient point.

(You don't have to thank me.)

maxdancona
 
  0  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 02:21 pm
@izzythepush,
It is about White women and men of a particular class and political ideology. I am not one of them.

Thank you Izzy... but I think you were missing a sentence.
glitterbag
 
  2  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 03:05 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

It is about White women and men of a particular class and political ideology. I am not one of them.

Thank you Izzy... but I think you were missing a sentence.



I hope you aren't trying to make the argument that women of color are never abused. Because THAT would make you sound a tad unhinged.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 03:13 pm
@glitterbag,
Nope. I am not making that argument. I am saying that Feminism is focused on White women... which is why it has more popularity than any other movement. The problems faced by people of color, both men and women, are far greater.

White women are far more privileged than Black men or Black women, yet they are monopolizing the discussion. That doesn't mean that they can't be part of the conversation (where the word "conversation" suggests more than one viewpoint is involved).
 

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