14
   

Me Too

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 03:18 pm
#MeToo Has Done What the Law Could Not

That's one of the most beautiful sentences I ever read.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 03:23 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

#MeToo Has Done What the Law Could Not

That's one of the most beautiful sentences I ever read.


I think that is pretty ugly. You know what else did what the law could not? Lynching, and McCarthyism. It is really messed up to see liberals cheering vigilante justice. People's careers and lives were ruined based on rumors during McCarthyism... something that was done without a legal process or any due process protection.

Civil rights are about protecting people when public opinion is against them. If Civil Rights are dependent on political ideology... they are meaningless.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  5  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 03:42 pm
@maxdancona,
Well, I don't know how to break this to you, but even women who don't think of themselves as 'feminists' are not sanguine about rape or other types of unwelcome assault. Something else they don't like, they don't like men to stick cell phones below skirt level to take pictures of their crotch. It's not flattering to women of any color.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 03:55 pm
@glitterbag,
Of course Glitterbag. If MeToo was saying "Rape is Bad", then it would have near 100% approval. A couple of years ago, some pervert was arrested in Massachusetts taking pictures up women's skirts and it was discovered (by an alert defense attorney) that much to everyone's surprise there was no law against it. That law was passed in a day, with no controversy.

That isn't what MeToo is saying. That is political misdirection....

MeToo is saying something much different than that "rape is bad". It is putting forward a narrative that any sexual attention is equal to rape. It is suggesting that women are vulnerable and need to be protected even when there is no power or violence used.

The complication is that obviously there are things that we all agree about. When Wienstein went down, there was very little support for him. When people say that men in power in a workplace shouldn't abuse their power, you won't get any backlash.

But what is getting resistance is a political ideology that pushes way too far. The suggestion that asking for sex is the same as rape, that women don't have any responsibility in sexual situation, that women should never be questioned. The cheering of public shaming of men, and even of women who disagree with the movement.

We all agree on the basics. It is the political absolutism behind the movement that is being rejected by men and women outside of the ideological bubble.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 04:10 pm
@glitterbag,
If Max can convince himself that 'Me Now' is racist and anti men he pretend he's informed, reasonable even, but all he's doing is justifying his own misogyny.

He may believe his own bullshit but I bloody don't.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 04:12 pm
@izzythepush,
There are women of color who are talking about White feminism. You might want to read their voices.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 04:28 pm
If self-righteous liberal White men and women were as outraged about the continuing racism in our society as they are about the perceived oppression of women... our society would be a lot further along in dealing with racial inequality.

The Black Lives Matter threads went away with a whimper, compared to this thread which is still full of energy and outrage.

White women have always been privileged. They have always had more political power, more access to wealth more legal protection than Black men or women. And, it continues... you all are focused on MeToo because it is White women.

Racism is by far the bigger problem in our society. And, you all are mostly ignoring it.
glitterbag
 
  4  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 06:52 pm
@maxdancona,
We have many BIG problems in this country. Racism, sex trafficking, kiddy porn are all odious, none of it should be tolerated. I could list pages of outrageous practices or social ills but why should I bother, you would just skim thru and then complain that I didn't mention home invasions or opioid addiction as proof I'm just another diva white woman who diverts attention from the 'true awfulness' to enrich her over abundance of privilege. You need to get hold of your anger and fix something instead of bellyaching about women, white or otherwise.

maxdancona
 
  -1  
Mon 5 Feb, 2018 07:35 pm
@glitterbag,
Actually, in real I am fixing things. I am going to bet that if you don't count screaming about the patriarchy in a pink hats ... I have done far more political activism for progressive causes than you have. My political activism involves more than Facebook memes or joining large groups of people screaming in pink hats. Fixing things means more than anger and vigilantism. It means working to form clear policy goals and form coalitions that are based on mutual benefit rather than demonizing other demographic groups.

I am frustrated that the feminist ideology, White women, have come to dominate the progressive movement to the detriment of every other issue. And, I don't accept the aggressiveness of an ideology that claims to be starting a "conversation" but then attacks anyone who dares to question any part of their narrative... including women.

Feminism lost the election. There is no single person more responsible for the election of Donald Trump than Hillary Clinton who felt that she was owed the White House. That really is the problem here, because of ideological extremes solid policy and real social justice are left behind.

The MeToo movement has become nothing more than an angry mob. There are no real policy discussions. There is no real dialog with different points of view. Now real attempt at coalition building.

When your movement is primarily focused on stamping out dissent and seeking out villains... you are doing it wrong. Effective movements build coalitions, reaching out to other communities, listen as well as scream and present solid, rational policy ideas that can be implemented.

This movement is specious, angry and is harming the progressive movement.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Tue 6 Feb, 2018 04:03 am
@glitterbag,
Black feminists have complained about a certain type of white feminist, but to portray that as an attack on the entire Me too movement is a gross distortion, but what would you expect from a serial liar?

It's 100 years ago this week that (some) women got the vote here, (over 30 and landed,) and the attitudes of some half men show just how far we have to go. The good news is that these whiny pathetic creatures do not talk for men, they're an embarrassment, they need to grow up, and grow a pair. At the very least they need to stop referring to themselves as men, because let's face it, there's nothing remotely manly about them.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Tue 6 Feb, 2018 04:34 am
Opinion piece by Laura Kuenssberg on the centenary of women's suffrage. It's UK based, but I doubt things are that much different the other side of the pond.

Quote:
If my five-year-old self had been told that my great-grandmothers weren't allowed to vote, I'd have thought that was pretty daft.

I grew up with a female prime minister in charge. It would have made no sense to me whatsoever back then to discover that women hadn't had a say.

If Mrs Thatcher wasn't always given a fond reception in Glasgow in the 1980s, it wasn't because she had a particular kind of chromosomes. And growing up - I suppose like many women of my generation - our expectation was that if you worked hard enough, women could more or less have it all.

That sense of what was possible grew with the size of Sue Ellen from Dallas's shoulder pads, followed later by the Spice Girls' cartoonish power. The fictitious Mrs Banks in Mary Poppins seemed to rather enjoy dashing off to suffragette rallies (whatever they really were), which of course she could do only with the help of her nanny to look after her children.

But to learn about the history of the fight for the vote back then seemed like a study of a weird injustice overturned from another world, not anything that could be in the memory of anyone's lifetime. Interesting to learn, yes, but relevant? It didn't necessarily seem so.

Well guess what? I can't be the only person in the world to have discovered as I grew up that life was a bit more complicated than that, and opportunity for women wasn't really going to be defined by Kylie Minogue's example of switching careers when she fancied it. Personal choices were a lot more complex. And yes, reality crept in - women were, and are, treated differently in so many parts of life. Without question, that decades-long struggle finds its own echoes today.

I'm writing this late at night on a bus speeding along a four-lane highway in China. It's full of officials from No 10 and other British journalists. We're all trailing the convoy of the UK's second female prime minister, who saw off another woman for her job (although who knows what might come next), following her every move in a trade mission as she escapes the political maelstrom for a moment.

And while there are plenty of women in this travelling version of the Westminster bubble, here, as time and again in our politics, it is a long way off from being one-for-one.

In politics at least, it is abundantly clear that big changes have taken place. Parliament does now look more like the population. There are 208 female MPs at the moment, that's a record level. But it's still not quite a third, and well short of reflecting the population.

It's a long time since the first ever MP was elected, in 1918, a long time since 19 MPs were voted in at the 1979 general election alongside the country's first female political leader, the 60 women elected in 1992 or even the dramatic doubling in 1997. Life is about more than just numbers, of course, but does the proportion of women sitting on our green benches really matter?

The argument is made, by most politicians certainly, that we should be aiming for something much more like 50-50. But the parties have different approaches to how to hit that mark.

Labour has pursued an active strategy for many years, where only women are allowed to stand for some seats. The all-women shortlist was much argued over to start with. And as times move on there's a new pointed question, dragging in the debate over the status of transgender candidates.

The Tories have worked more informally, using support networks and gentle encouragement - and that has often been important too. Interestingly, many female MPs who give wholehearted backing to Theresa May came to know and like her through her work over the years as part of their organisation, Women To Win.

But why should they make the effort, and does it matter to you? Certainly most voters have got many more things to worry about than gender equality in politics. Remember, it took years and years for the campaigns of the suffragettes to cut through.

But if we want our politics to represent all of us fairly, consider this. If you are reading this with female eyes then I guess, like me, you're no stranger to being the only woman in the room. It's not necessarily bad, or good, sometimes it doesn't occur to you at all, but sometimes it is glaringly obvious, and rather different.

If you are a man reading this, what does it feel like if you are the only one in a room full of women? Again, whether you like it or loathe it, you may not always notice, but when you do, sometimes it can feel pretty different.

As human beings, we all know that different environments and different contexts lead to different conversations. Think back to when women were forbidden from having a say in who ran the country. Were their voices heard, their hopes and fears fully taken into consideration?

With the glorious benefit of 100 years of hindsight, the answer to that is a straightforward no. A century on, is it so strange to hope that everyone can be represented in any room?

That's not to say for a second that women's concerns are all the same. But in the most straightforward of terms, if you want a system to be successful, why would you not want to include as many people as possible? Does a democracy inspire faith, if some of its members feel no-one is listening?

As this anniversary approaches it is not simply a question of commemorating an achievement of days long gone. The best tribute maybe is to remember suffrage's most simple message, to give everyone a say.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42945323
glitterbag
 
  2  
Tue 6 Feb, 2018 05:51 am
@izzythepush,
Good article. Women in the States haven’t had their centennial as yet, I think it will be in the summer of 2020. (Assuming we are still able to vote)

((We are at a hospital in Baltimore waiting for mr. glitterbag ‘s cardiologist, he’s having a procedure and could possibly be released later this afternoon, or tomorrow)))
izzythepush
 
  1  
Tue 6 Feb, 2018 07:37 am
@glitterbag,
Fingers crossed. I've spoken to my dad, he will be discharged once social care is sorted out. He thinks it will be later on today, but I'm not so sure.

Btw, all women, not just landed ones over thirty, didn't get the vote over here for another ten years.
glitterbag
 
  2  
Tue 6 Feb, 2018 08:09 am
@izzythepush,
I hope things are arranged quickly for your Dad. No one likes being in the hospital and it’s always a relief to get back home.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Tue 6 Feb, 2018 09:33 am
@izzythepush,
Lots of interesting things to reflect on in Ms. Kuenssberg's piece.

Thanks for posting it.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Tue 6 Feb, 2018 10:42 am
@ehBeth,
There are a lot more men then women in political power, building companies or inventing technology. There are also a lot more men then women in prison. Maybe it's for the same reason?

When I hear a feminist suggest that in an equal society, 50% of people in prison will be women... then I will know she is serious.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Tue 6 Feb, 2018 10:57 am
The difference between the Suffrage movement, and today's feminism is huge.

In Suffrage there was a clear policy goal to work towards, it wasn't just random anger. And mostly the movement wasn't about attacking men, or restricting the right of men to vote. It was a specific policy aimed at making society more equal in a real way.

This is quite a bit different from the general anger of the MeToo movement with no real policy goals and a generalized anger at men. Does anyone here want to claim that the election of Trump didn't directly cause this outburst of outrage?
engineer
 
  3  
Tue 6 Feb, 2018 01:08 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

The difference between the Suffrage movement, and today's feminism is huge.

That's an interesting statement since the similarities are so obvious. The suffrage movement was largely driven by upper middle class and upper class white women who W. E. B. Du Bois called out as being completely willing to throw women of color under the bus. They had a specific goal (voting) while today's feminists have a variety of goals (equal pay for equal work, elimination of workplace sexual harassment, reduction of violence towards women), but I doubt those early suffragettes would fail to see or understand the goals of today's feminists. I also think the response from the anti-feminists has been similar - women are biologically incapable of being leaders or programmers instead of being biologically incapable of understanding politics, feminists are just men haters who want to wear the pants in the family, feminists are just ugly women who would change their tune if they had a man to pay attention to them, feminists are ruining romance (“wears the pants that kill romance” from "Since My Margaret Become a Suffragette", 1913). There was also a fair amount of violence in the suffrage movement. I'm not sure why you hold one in such high regard compared to the other.

P.S.
Quote:
The Black Lives Matter threads went away with a whimper, compared to this thread which is still full of energy and outrage.

The main BLM thread has 175 pages of comments compared to 30 here.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Tue 6 Feb, 2018 02:02 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
I'm not sure why you hold one in such high regard compared to the other.


I told you exactly why.... you seem to have ignored that point that I clearly stated.

1) Suffragettes had a clear policy goal (the right to vote).
2) Suffragettes were founded on equality, rather than on the failings of men. They could fight for the rights of women without attacking men.

I support equal pay for equal work. There still needs to be discussion over specific policies, but you can have rational discussions over whether specific policies are a good idea; such as hiding salary from previous employers, or making compensation public. It is a conversation... more than one perspective is allowed, on specific policies rather than a demonization of male employees or companies.

The anger in MeToo is often directed not at specific policies to make things better. It is a diffuse anger that paints half of our kids as potential rapists, and wants to insert itself into sexuality in a general way. When an anonymous woman can publicly attack Aziz Ansari and he possibly defend himself or even question her narrative... it is about anger and vengeance, not about policy or a strategy to actually make society more fair.

The narrative is more important than finding a solution, and any dissent... even from woman voices... is pretty harshly attacked.

Tell me how we can make society more fair by providing a better way for women to report abuses of power, and you will likely get me on board... or you will at least hear my concerns about the plan and we can work on a real solution. Start yelling about "toxic masculinity" and tell me the boys need to be actively prevented from becoming rapists and you lose me.

The MeToo movement has lost me.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Tue 6 Feb, 2018 02:33 pm
Are you a man or a max?
0 Replies
 
 

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