Patriotism: A Menace to Liberty

McGentrix wrote:

D'artagnan wrote:
Chuck Norris? That's a hoot. Was his name inserted in the list to subvert the idea that the others are true patriots? I wouldn't think so, but...

Boy, you sure like to show off that vast intellect, don't you?

You should do a little research about what Chuck Norris has done as a patriot before spoutin' off...

Why don't you tell us what he has done as a "patriot", McG?

And while you are at it, why not tell us what Rumsfeld has done as a "patriot" also.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Norris and Reagan were just actors. Can one be judged for patriotism for a role?

I guess just about the whole staff of Air America are not patriots because most of them are just actors pretending to be talk show hosts!

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No, this isn't about what I think, this is about Patriotic Americans. ebrown_p and others have defined what being a patriot means to them. I want to know if any of the names I listed count as being "patriots" under their definition or not.

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I am curious McGentrix. What has Chuck Norris done?

I googled "Chuck Norris" patriot and other than one site that says

Quote:

IF YOU DO SUPPORT OUR PRESIDENTS DECISIONS YOU ARE A PATRIOT TO OUR COUNTRY!

... I couldn't find anything else he has done other than make some bloody movies.

I kinda understand the other names on your list.

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Sounds like I'm not the only one wondering why you listed Chuck Norris with those other lumiunaries, McG. Are you going to tell us, or just be coy about it?

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Chuck was also in the Air Force and later the Marines during the Korean war. He is also a spokesperson for the Veterans Administration - visiting V.A. hospitals and speaking with World War II, Korean, and Vietnam War Veterans including on from World War I. He is activly involved with the Make-A-Wish Foundation for twenty years by making dreams come true for terminally ill children.

With the help of former President George Bush, Mr. Norris began teaching martial arts as part of the curriculum at the M. C. Williams Middle School in Houston, Texas. The program was incredibly successful in helping the students to raise their self-esteem, instill discipline and respect, and get them out of gangs. The program is now in 30 schools with over 4,200 youth actively participating.

There is a lot of other stuff as well, but I'd like to know, does he fit your description of an American patriot?

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To answer you question McG (and these are purely my opinions but that's what you asked for.)

1. I think Ronald Reagan was sincere, and he was a very talented politician. I disagree with many (but not all) of his policies. I think he was very wrong in his policies in Latin America. He was very good at making Americans proud to be Americans (which is not in itself a bad thing) and undoubtably he had a big impact on our country.

I guess in the "sincere love of country" and especially the "communicated love for country" definitions, Reagan was a patriot. His actions in Latin America which many of us believe were against the Constitution he swore to upheld was decidely unpatriotic.

2. Donald Rumsfeld is a failure on many levels. He has lied. He has failed the troops. Abu Graib happened on his watch. The number of troops in Iraq is his responsibility.

Even if you support the war he presides over, you have to say he has put his own skin over the safety of the men fighting it. Things would certainly better if a man with Character were in his place.

Rumsfeld is not a patriot in any sense of the word.

3. George Custer represents the worst in American history. Not a patriot, unless your view of America is very grim indeed.

4. I am still puzzled why Chuck Norris is on your list. I will tell you if I agree when you tell me what he did that was so great.

5. I assume you put Rudolph Giuliani on your list because of his reponse to 9/11. I guess this qualifies, but it seems that even from the conservative point of view, you could do better. He was a washed up quirky weird guy before 9/11. He is still a weird guy even though 9/11 seems to have helped him politically.

6. I bet that in 20 years, George W. Bush will be held in very low esteem. He will be nowhere near the level of Reagan for conservatives.

Bush speaks the language of "patriotism" very well. In my opinion his actions are hurting America very deeply. Time will tell who is right. I don't think that history will judge GW Bush very kindly.

I don't consider Bush very highly (but this should not surprise you.)

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ebrown_p wrote:

To answer you question McG (and these are purely my opinions but that's what you asked for.)

1. I think Ronald Reagan was sincere, and he was a very talented politician. I disagree with many (but not all) of his policies. I think he was very wrong in his policies in Latin America. He was very good at making Americans proud to be Americans (which is not in itself a bad thing) and undoubtably he had a big impact on our country.

I guess in the "sincere love of country" and especially the "communicated love for country" definitions, Reagan was a patriot. His actions in Latin America which many of us believe were against the Constitution he swore to upheld was decidely unpatriotic.

2. Donald Rumsfeld is a failure on many levels. He has lied. He has failed the troops. Abu Graib happened on his watch. The number of troops in Iraq is his responsibility.

Even if you support the war he presides over, you have to say he has put his own skin over the safety of the men fighting it. Things would certainly better if a man with Character were in his place.

Rumsfeld is not a patriot in any sense of the word.

3. George Custer represents the worst in American history. Not a patriot, unless your view of America is very grim indeed.

4. I am still puzzled why Chuck Norris is on your list. I will tell you if I agree when you tell me what he did that was so great.

5. I assume you put Rudolph Giuliani on your list because of his reponse to 9/11. I guess this qualifies, but it seems that even from the conservative point of view, you could do better. He was a washed up quirky weird guy before 9/11. He is still a weird guy even though 9/11 seems to have helped him politically.

6. I bet that in 20 years, George W. Bush will be held in very low esteem. He will be nowhere near the level of Reagan for conservatives.

Bush speaks the language of "patriotism" very well. In my opinion his actions are hurting America very deeply. Time will tell who is right. I don't think that history will judge GW Bush very kindly.

I don't consider Bush very highly (but this should not surprise you.)

Thank you for your response.

As a result though, I see no further need to discuss what a patriot is as neither of us will agree. ever.

Have a happy new year though!

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Reagan...hard to judge because he didn't have all his facilities.....he , as ebrown said, talked a great game...his homophobia has caused the death of uncounted numbers....

Donald Rumsfeld....profiteer and attack dog....no patriot....

Custer...please....crazy as a bed bug....

Norris...probably the closest thing to a patriot....

Bush...absolutely not...squanders the lives of our brightest and best to consolidate his power base and pay off his supporters.....one of the blackest traitors in American history....he and his entire gang....

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patriot: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests

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Larry wrote:

patriot: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests

What about those of us who love our country and support its interests, but question its authority. Our Democracy was founded on the right of people to question, and even oppose, the government.

This is one of my favorite quotes on the subject

Albert Einstein wrote:

He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, scince for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despiceable an ignoreable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

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the best that can be said of Albert Einstein was that he was considered a threat to american democracy by J Edgar Hoover. The man deserves any and all accolades he gets. The (FBI) Einstein File reveals to a wider audience what has remained little known in the decades since Einstein's death: the Nobel Prize-winning physicist, whose Theories of Special and General Relativity changed the world and whose name became synonymous with scientific genius, was deeply committed to the fight against war and for democratic rights and civil liberties. He was also an outspoken opponent of social inequality and an advocate of a socialist planned economy. The fargin' bastich.

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Larry, McGentrix et. all

Was Joseph Goebbels a patriot?

He communicated love for his country, he supported its authority and he was fully supported its interests and its military endeavors.

Doesn't he meet your criteria for patriot?

link

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How does creating dissention and trying to undermine the authority of the very country you are a trying to help equate to patriotism?

A country is not a made up border of land and water. It is it's people and it's government. When you betray the people and government of a country, you can hardly be expected to be referred to as a "patriot".

Look at Custer for example. All you believe is the hype surrounding his legacy. Pay no attention to his outstanding military career though, and forget what he did to help form this country. The man was a total of his life, not a mere reflection of a single point.

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Custer's last words "take no prisoners"

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dyslexia wrote:

Custer's last words "take no prisoners"

He lived by the sword, he died by the sword.

He also followed his orders and was instrumental in the formation of the US.

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dyslexia wrote:

Custer's last words "take no prisoners"

I thought it was "where did all those f'ing indians come from"?

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McGentrix wrote:

How does creating dissention and trying to undermine the authority of the very country you are a trying to help equate to patriotism?

Well...I could cite Claus Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg and Erwin Rommel as two people who "created dissention" and "undermined authority" of their country...and who, in my opinion, were both German patriots.

Do you not agree?

Quote:

When you betray the people and government of a country, you can hardly be expected to be referred to as a "patriot".

Well...they were not referred to as "patriots"...at least not by Hitler and his gang. We are not, however, discussing whether or not people can be expected to be thought of as patriots...but rather whether or not they are patriots.

So I ask again...were Stauffenberg and Rommel patriots or not?

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perhaps we should start a new thread on the difference between patriots and stepford patriots....

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To many patriotism is the jingoist's prayer. To me it is pursuing your nation's best interest, not seeing how bellicose one can be.

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Patriotism: A Menace to Liberty

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