27
   

The Statue Wars Begin

 
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 10:36 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
The dumbest part of this is - even if you could say that this person's name could be offensive - why wouldn't you just call him Bob instead of Robert or even he could use a different name for TV rather than just yank him off the air because he has an unfortunate name.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 10:40 am
@Linkat,
I agree that it's hardly a work of great art, but I don't think it was ever intended to be. Nevertheless, there is no point in debating what "art" is and isn't ugly because it's a matter of personal taste.

I've no problem with your comment, just desired clarification of what you found to be offensive, and if you were kidding. I'm not offended by art I don't like, but that's me and to a certain degree semantics.

I get where you are coming from, it's just that the words "offended" and "offensive" have become politically supercharged and, when they are used in connection with a statue (and particularly in this thread), the logical inference is that the offence is associated with anything but the statute's aesthetics.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 10:50 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Ancient Egyptian culture is today celebrated and merchandised in thousands of different ways. Should we be offended by the "Luxor" hotel and casino in Las Vegas? Is it terribly insensitive of a woman to dress like Cleopatra at a Halloween party?


I can see your point - my "witch" statue was mostly as a joke and a little bit too that it is inappropriate where it is placed.

Curious - (as I haven't been there) are these merchandised things you mention shown or displayed at all around the pyramids themselves or just in places like Las Vegas and or at costumed parties?

To me it would be a bit inappropriate if it were in the vicinity of the pyramids rather than just in other areas. Sort of like the Bewitched sit com wasn't offensive just the placement of this god awful statue.
Linkat
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 10:56 am
@maxdancona,
Yeah I have been there - I am sure people like the statue - but then again people like watching the Kardishians and other tasteless things.

I like Salem and the area especially around the harbor. I typically don't like things that are ugly and distasteful - I am sure there are some exceptions though.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 10:58 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I agree that it's hardly a work of great art, but I don't think it was ever intended to be. Nevertheless, there is no point in debating what "art" is and isn't ugly because it's a matter of personal taste.

I've no problem with your comment, just desired clarification of what you found to be offensive, and if you were kidding. I'm not offended by art I don't like, but that's me and to a certain degree semantics.

I get where you are coming from, it's just that the words "offended" and "offensive" have become politically supercharged and, when they are used in connection with a statue (and particularly in this thread), the logical inference is that the offence is associated with anything but the statute's aesthetics.


I get it - I used offensive more because of this whole thing going on with statues - kind of making light of the whole thing. It wasn't overall meant to be serious.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 10:59 am
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

The dumbest part of this is - even if you could say that this person's name could be offensive - why wouldn't you just call him Bob instead of Robert or even he could use a different name for TV rather than just yank him off the air because he has an unfortunate name.


It was a ridiculous decision for so many reasons.

I'm sure there are a whole lot of Robert Lee's around the country and probably a bunch of Robert E. Lees who are quite happy and even proud of their names and don't want to see what happened to the unfortunate Dr. Mudd who treated John Wilkes Boothe for the ankle injury he sustained after murdering Lincoln, happen to them and their name.

I don't think they needed to do anything. The number of people who might be triggered by an Asian-American announcer having the same name as a Confederate general has got to (Please God!) be very tiny and I doubt very many of them watch sports. Plus, if they are that idiotic they are likely to find anything on ESPN offensive.

Instead, they created an absurd solution to a non-existent problem, because either the decision maker at ESPN is the type of moron who might be triggered by an Asian-American announcer having the same name as a Confederate general, or they anticipated the publicity the move would generate and they wanted it. (I opt for the former explanation)



0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 10:59 am
@Linkat,
I assume youve been to Salem. Ya go into a restaurant and are served by warlocks or witches.cartoon Hype it is. Is any sad point of history to be ignored unless its got a huge body count like Gettysburg?? I think not.
The body count at Salem (not including pets and farm goats at Salem) was 162 trials with prison time for 150 , 27 people were executed or died in prison. The entire experience(including the Salem Museum) is run as a marketing exercise only.

I wonder how the idea of selling sombreros at the Alamo would be seen by San Antonians?





Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 11:05 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

I assume youve been to Salem. Ya go into a restaurant and are served by warlocks or witches.cartoon Hype it is. Is any sad point of history to be ignored unless its got a huge body count like Gettysburg?? I think not.
The body count at Salem (not including pets and farm goats at Salem) was 162 trials with prison time for 150 , 27 people were executed or died in prison. The entire experience(including the Salem Museum) is run as a marketing exercise only.

I wonder how the idea of selling sombreros at the Alamo would be seen by San Antonians?


That's in poor taste too - as is the "authentic" Seminole Indian village I happen to stubble upon in Florida - where ended in a gift shop where a Seminole Indian was smoking a butt and selling plastic alligators.

In Salem I have never been to a restaurant in which a witch or warlock served me. There could be such places I suppose I have no idea. But there are plenty of very good restaurants there none of which have such servers.

Yeah everyone has different viewpoints on taste but these sorts of things I find tasteless and try to avoid.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 11:07 am
@Linkat,
I've never been to Egypt either so can't answer but it's difficult to imagine there isn't easy access to souvenir vendors for people visiting the pyramids. If there are any restrictions on the vendors it's most likely due to the government not wanting the wealthy foreign tourists being harassed while they enjoy their experience. Someone here, I'm sure, can inform us.

I provided only two examples. Just to see, I googled "Pyramid Merchandise" and was rewarded with 616,000 results. I then googled "Ancient Egypt Merchandise" and got 880,000 results. That's a lot of offensive stuff being sold.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 11:10 am
@farmerman,
Indeed. I've been there twice (stayed with the missus opposite the House of Seven Gabels more than a week.)

My native town, btw, is known as "witch town" (about 40 women, men and children wwere killed as witches in the 17th century. The well on the marketplace has a statue of a witch, too. One of the former power towers is called witch tower since centuries, a local festival weekend is the "witches town festival...)
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 11:32 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
The point is that if you look hard enough, you can find something to be offended about in almost anything.

I enjoy Contra Dancing, it is an American folk dance that is called, there are dance figures that everyone knows that have been around for hundreds of years... the Swing, the allemánd. This year there is a new figure called an "eye swing". I had to ask someone and It would have been hard to not laugh when someone told me... it the figure originally known as "Gypsie" (except they were already laughing).

The political correctness is ridiculous.

Lot's of people like the Bewitched statue. Americans my age grew up enjoying the show.

Can I point out again that Witches aren't real; nor are satyrs, fairies and gnomes.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 11:44 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Im sure we may have, somewhere in the world, Attila Week or Gupta torture festivals.
We already have Civil War encampments and had a Battle reenactment of the three (ctually 5) but we (to date) deal with them more in respect than with a Bacchanalia.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 11:50 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Can I point out again that Witches aren't real; nor are satyrs, fairies and gnomes
I wonder what our opinions would be were we to go back 320 years and live among the common folks.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 12:10 pm
The point is not whether or not witches are real, but that people believed that witches existed, and believed it strongly enough to execute people for it, on the testimony of hysterical adolescent girls, in many cases girls who had been themselves the objects of suspicion until they diverted the public gaze.

That doesn't make adolescent girls evil--they're just ordinary growing humans attempting to find their ways in a world which is largely incomprehensible to them. The truly evil people involved were the witch-finders and bloated, pompous religious "leaders" like Cotton Mather. For those who would slight the suffering of those men, women and children, it is worth noting that this plague just found its western-most expression in Massachusetts. It is reasonably estimated that 30,000 to 60,000 people were executed in Europe in the 16th, 17th and early 18th centuries (far more than the Inquisition killed, but then, the Protestants had much better organs of propaganda). Very likely, the majority of them were lonely, friendless people, probably often suffering senile dementia, and doubtless also many of them the objects of personal malevolence.

Once again, I have not called for the goofy statue to be removed, nor do I think Linkat was seriously suggested that. The hysteria over this in this thread comes from two conservative voices, one attempting to masquerade as a "liberal."

Finally, the restaurant on the waterfront, out over the water, where we dined was first rate. The servers were hard working, cheerful and dressed as one would expect in a white table cloth restaurant. It was a pleasant end to day which had had a nasty overtone of tawdry, crass, money-grubbing poor taste.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 12:28 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
The hysteria over this in this thread comes from two conservative voices, one attempting to masquerade as a "liberal."


I don't really care which label you want to slap on me... and I think it is a bit amusing that you think it matters. I think if you look issue by issue, I think most rational people would call me a liberal.

On the other hand, I do believe in free speech. And I push back on ideological narratives (even from my side), and I like to look at issues from more than one side of view. If that means you want to take away my "liberal club membership card", go ahead (although I will miss getting discounts on cheese).

It is funny that you care so much about labels. I have never been much for ideological purity, I make up my mind issue by issue.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 12:51 pm
@maxdancona,
We are talking about this because a knee-jerk reaction caused people to find offense in a "goofy" statue from a popular 1960s sitcom. This thread is not about the Salem Witch trials. It is about statues.

That people overreacted this way is funny, and it illustrates the problem with today's hyper-sensitive political correctness. No real witches were harmed in the creation of the Bewitched statue. Wink
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 12:52 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Ginally, the restaurant on the waterfront, out over the water, where we dined was first rate. The servers were hard working, cheerful and dressed as one would expect in a white table cloth restaurant. It was a pleasant end to day which had had a nasty overtone of tawdry, crass, money-grubbing poor taste.
You mean the one serving mainly fish ?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 01:16 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I guess--that's what I ordered, anyway, seafood. It's been more than 15 years, and my memory doesn't serve me well with anything in the last 50 years. Now, the High Middle Ages, though . . .
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 01:48 pm
@maxdancona,
I think we've cleared up who finds the Bewitched statue offensive for politically correct reasons and who simply thinks it's lousy "art" and perhaps in bad taste because of the history of the town, and crass merchandizing

I don't think that anyone thinks the statue is giving a bad name to witches (real or imagined), although I suspect that if we had a Wiccan frequenting this board she might. As we've both noted on numerous occasions, offense hunting is a very satisfying pastime since everyone who engages in it will have no problem tracking down their quarry; even on their maiden hunt. I wish I could always count on landing a fish when I take to the lake. (Oops, hope this didn't offend any PITA members here!)

The statue in Salem offered mainly in jest, still suited the theme of the thread because it led 1) At least one person to jump on an Offense Train that wasn't actually traveling and 2) At least one person to assume it was predicated on political correctness.

I think even linkat will acknowledge that she wasn't completely clear with her original post as to the nature of her ill regard for the statute, but this is where we are as a society: Wailing about every little thing that can be considered an attack on someone's coveted identity as a victim has become so common, it's the first thing we think of when the term offensive is used. The definition of the word is being narrowed down to serve a specific political purpose.

Moreover, it's one of those things that annoys everyone, but for some only when their personal ox is gored.
0 Replies
 
jcboy
 
  8  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 05:12 pm
When you learn the full history, you really have to question why this was o.k.

Why Black Women Are Protesting A Statue Of This Famed Gynecologist

Quote:
The history of reproductive health care in the U.S. is fraught with racism, as white women’s reproductive health care access came at the cost of black and brown women’s lives. Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was a known eugenicist; the earliest forms of birth control were tested on Puerto Rican women, and black slaves were routinely purchased or rented by medical professionals to be tested on.

Now, a group of black women is calling for the removal of a statue in New York City that represents this dark history.

The Black Youth Project 100, an activist group founded in 2013, staged a protest against the statue of J. Marion Sims outside the New York Academy of Medicine on August 19. They photographed their protest in a now-viral Facebook post in which they explain the reason they are calling for the statue’s removal.

“J. Marion Sims was a gynecologist in the 1800s who purchased Black women slaves and used them as guinea pigs for his untested surgical experiments,” they wrote. “He repeatedly performed genital surgery on Black women WITHOUT ANESTHESIA because according to him, ‘Black women don’t feel pain.’”


https://scontent.ftpa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p350x350/20953004_1550909888293670_5785406551352925542_n.png?oh=b1779d42cb977912afa75a8e9ddf9306&oe=5A347D12

 

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