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Voters Support Kerry

 
 
williamhenry3
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Apr, 2003 12:20 am
blatham wrote:
This ought not to be an issue. The principle of free speech holds that anyone should be able to speak freely, and that constraints on such speech are where the danger lies.

There is no justification within the principle of free speech to suggest that any individual or group ought to shut up. Such suggestions, or the more serious sorts of actions as I mentioned above (threats, boycotts) seek to limit certain voices being heard. They clearly work in opposition to the free speech principle.

However, as this thread demonstrates, and as the example of what occured with the Dixie Chicks or with anti-war protestors demonstrates, such attempts to curtail speech are not at all uncommon in the country which has this principle as its first ammendment. That makes the issue very important.

To suggest that actors ought to shut up about politics is not much different from suggesting that jews ought to shut up about the space program. One can validly query what special knowledge or expertise a speaker has on the subject spoken of, in order to ascertain credibility, and one can subsequently point out to other listeners that this speaker has no special knowledge, but one can't act to shut them up and still maintain the free speech principle.

Sofia's initial wording then, is in conflict with this principle. So, very clearly, are threats, intimidation, and boycotts. Their intent and goal is to shut the person up, rather than to present a more convincing counter-argument.

That such anti-free speech strategies are being forwarded so commonly in the culture, and by broadcast media, and implicitly (if not explicitly) forwarded by the government itself suggests to me that America is less freedom loving than it pretends to itself that it is.


blatham<

Your defense of freedom of speech is very moving to me. Without the free-flowing of ideas (such as we have on this thread), the United States would become a nation with "one voice." That is in direct conflict with our Constitution and the "melting pot" of a diverse population.

Right now, as the Dixie Chicks episode illustrates, the motives of people's speech are being called into question by an administration which gives short shrift to anyone who disagrees with it.

Free speech does not mean you have to agree or disagree with what is said. It just means that we all have the right to speak our minds without fears of reprisal from the government or from individuals who besmirch
others for their spoken or written words.

Those who do not understand the principle of freedom of speech often harangue others who do. That is part of the give and take of daily American life. But when a government or a person tells you to shut up, they are trying to take away your freedom. We must never let our voices be silenced by those who would seek conformity of thought in all aspects of American life.

Thanks again, blatham.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Apr, 2003 09:18 pm
Event: War in Iraq
Dissenter's Speech: Free Speech.
Dissenters Marching in protest: Freedom of expression.
Dissenter's burning the American Flag: Freedom of Expression.


Event: Actors Talking Politics
Dissenter's Speech: Free Speech.
Dissenters throwing away CD's: Freedom of Expression.

You can't twist it to suit your politics.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Apr, 2003 10:51 pm
sofia

Please see the difference in your examples, because it is very important to free speech and liberty.

In the first example, what is being dissented or protested is a government decision to go to war

In the second example, what is being dissented or protested (and worse) is speech itself, the expression of opinion.

This isn't a matter of political leaning. I am, for example, not trying to limit the voice of those who supported the war. I argue against, but I don't seek to close off their public speech.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2003 04:03 pm
So, it seems someone (maybe you) would like to choose what speech is protected, and what is not...

I say actors and actresses and the like do not have more freedom under law than I do.

I assert that governmental decisions are not the only items people can speak against.

I think your view is the one that is attempting to limit free speech. Not mine.

Even if I were to say something completely wrong, "Jews have no right to positions in the US government." I have the right to say it. I have the right to call radio stations and complain about the Dixie Chicks. I have the right to burn their CDs. It really surprises me that your opinion to protect freedom of speech and freedom of expression, relies on limiting free speech and freedom of expression.

The DC thing is over. What happened? They said what they wanted to say; many people on supporting and dissenting sides said what they wanted, the DC's got a great deal of exposure (in at least two ways), and all is well with the world. If people with your opinion prevailed, you would silence those, who disagreed with the DCs. The side you don't agree with...

No one should be silenced.

What the DCs faced is alot what I face here. I have an extreme minority view. Things would be easier on me if I withheld my views. I could succumb to pressure and not say things that would set me apart. That is my choice. They also had a choice. They spoke. Good for them. They accepted the consequences. Good for them. We all have the choice, and know the consequences. Kids learn this on playgrounds. I'm not giving up my right to speak to make life easier for other people. And I don't expect others to give up their rights to make things easier for me.

No argument. Just trying for further clarification.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2003 04:04 pm
I dn't know what has become John Kerry...
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2003 04:08 pm
Sofia wrote:

No one should be silenced.


I think that's all that anyone is saying. It doesn't seem very compatible with

Sofia wrote:
That was my point.
They all need to shut it.


is all.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2003 04:17 pm
<sigh>
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2003 04:19 pm
I still want them to shut it.

But, in the absence of me kidnapping them, and stuffing socks in their mouths--I don't think my "Shut it" is going to cause them to shut it.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2003 04:24 pm
And is anyone here planning to kidnap you, stuff socks, et al? (snood! Shush!)

As far as I can tell, this discussion goes something like this:

DC: We're embarrassed that Bush is from Texas.
Dixie Chicks Protestors: We think you suck. Some of us even want you dead (yes, there were death threats.) We will break your CDs. See! <snap>
Dixie Chicks Protestors' protestors: Hey! Enough with the death threats already!
Dixie Chicks Protestors' protestors' protestors: Hey! The DCP's can say whatever they want! Shaddup!
DCPPs: Hey! Don't tell me to shaddup! You shaddup!
DCPPPs: Hey! Don't tell me to shaddup! You shaddup!

Etc.

This could go on for a while.

Let's leave it at "no one should be silenced", eh?
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2003 04:34 pm
Thank God. I was starting to go cross-eyed like that hideous avatar.






(P.S.-- Death threats are illegal. Not protected. And, not Sofia approved.)
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2003 05:05 pm
sozobe wrote:
And is anyone here planning to kidnap you, stuff socks, et al? (snood! Shush!)

As far as I can tell, this discussion goes something like this:

DC: We're embarrassed that Bush is from Texas.
Dixie Chicks Protestors: We think you suck. Some of us even want you dead (yes, there were death threats.) We will break your CDs. See! <snap>
Dixie Chicks Protestors' protestors: Hey! Enough with the death threats already!
Dixie Chicks Protestors' protestors' protestors: Hey! The DCP's can say whatever they want! Shaddup!
DCPPs: Hey! Don't tell me to shaddup! You shaddup!
DCPPPs: Hey! Don't tell me to shaddup! You shaddup!

Etc.

This could go on for a while.

Let's leave it at "no one should be silenced", eh?



You made me smile and laugh, Soz. Thanks. Cool
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2003 07:06 pm
sofia

I'll try this one more time, because it is a distinction you are working very hard to ignore, and it's not unimportant.

The rationale of the free speech principle you already know - liberty is maximized when speech is not suppressed, and liberty is threatened where speech is suppressed.

Clearly, the sort of speech which your framers wanted to protect most acutely was speech directed at and concerning political leaders and political ideas. Agreed? Their experience and their understanding of history made them aware that it was this sort of speech precisely which was the traditional target of authoritarian systems. As such, it is the most important of speech acts to defend, if one holds with the principle that liberty is dependent upon free speech.

Thus, if someone says "I think peaches are the best food", and some other person, a real strawberry lover, tries to intimidate or set up a boycott of the speaker, I'll not be much concerned here, because liberty questions are not acutely engaged.

On the other hand, where some statement regarding policy or a sitting politician gains the same attempts to quell the speaker, then I will be greatly concerned, because liberty questions are now intimately engaged.

There is a clear difference in both intention and effect between someone expressing a political opinion, and in others attempting to suppress that political speaker. The first is clearly what the framers wanted (engaged speech). The second moves in opposition to what the framers wanted (suppression of speech).

I have not told anyone to shut up. I am not telling the folks attempting to shut up the Dixie Chicks to shut up. I would tell them that, if they truly believe in free speech, then they ought to talk but they ought to talk ideas. To attempt to shut up an idea is not consistent with the first ammendment, and it is dangerous to a democracy.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2003 08:45 pm
blatham-- Not trying to ignore. I just think it is bad practice to avoid the purity of free speech, because some people are afraid of what might be done with it down the road...

And, the gloves are off....
0 Replies
 
williamhenry3
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2003 11:03 pm
Sofia wrote:
I just think it is bad practice to avoid the purity of free speech, because some people are afraid of what might be done with it down the road...


Sofia, I am so glad you are back on topic about the Democrat presidential nomination. That's because, to me and to others, I am sure, your grade in Understanding the First Amendment has brought you the grade of F-. You haven't a clue as to what blatham and others were trying so brilliantly to explain to you.

I don't think I would bring up another discussion of the First Amendment, if I were you. That's not because I wish to censor you, but because it is apparent that the First Amendment is a topic about which you know nothing at all, period.
[/i]
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2003 09:12 am
oh boy..... pandora redux...
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2003 09:25 am
williamhenry--
BS. Nobody supressed the f'in Dixie Chicks. They just exersized their right to free speech. Criticisms can be criticised.

Free speech is not reserved for those criticising the current Presidential administration.

When Clinton sold out the Lincoln Bedroom to fund his campaigns; dissenters voiced their opinions. Should we have silenced those who supported him? You need to apply your illogical, partisan view to other Presidents and events to see how ridiculous and unsupportable it is.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2003 03:48 pm
Sofia,

No one has claimed the critics of the Dixie Chicks had no right to express themselves. The question, I think, in addition to that of a democratic state, as Blatham points out, is one of ethics. Can one claim their right to free speech while threatening or actually attempting to cause massive financial damage or a damaged career to those who express an opposing view?

Disagreement, debate, sarcasm even is one thing, but to cause injury in an attempt to suppress free speech is another.

I recently won a law suit against some very wealthy people. These people did everything they could to force me to drop the suit. This was their only defense. They threatened to ruin my business, my ability to make money, they hired private detectives and followed my children and other equally heinous acts. I didn't object to their right to defend their position and themselves in the lawsuit, but I do think their coercive tactics were definitely below the belt.

I used to have a bumper sticker on my car that said, "vote choice." While I had that bumper sticker, for a period of two months, I had four separate instances of nails in my tires. (since removing the sticker, I've had none.) Do I support the right of those who disagree with me to express themselves? Yes. Do I support them expressing their disagreement with destructive behavior rather than by the use of their words? No. I removed the sticker, but it was not voluntary. And it has not resulted in my changed opinion. It's resulted only in a greatly reduced opinion on my part for them and their tactics. Not only do I disagree with them, but now I think of them as cheaters.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2003 03:56 pm
What happened to you is digusting and infuriating.

I'm glad you won the suit. It's a miracle, as justice more frequently goes to the highest bidder.

They would have been within their rights to tell you what they thought of your opinion (though, that would have been stupid, arguing about a bumper sticker...), but taking action is where they broke the law.

Why did you remove the bumper sticker, if you don't mind answering? I think I would have gotten another one to match the other side of my bumper--especially after the lawsuit.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2003 04:10 pm
Sofia,

I appreciate your support and encouragement. I removed the bumper sticker because I decided I didn't have to save the world single handedly. I was dealing with folks who were willing to hurt me and I'm a busy woman. I decided I could do more staying on the go, with tires intact.......fighting for the cause than simply sporting a bumper sticker. What the nail-in-tires people did do was make an even more dedicated worker out of me. They were really helping out their own opposition.

And yes, about the lawsuit, I ended up the highest bidder, (by the skin of my teeth). But it was a huge gamble for me. And one I almost lost. Unfortunately I didn't have a choice, I was going to loose a very large amount of money (my retirement) if I didn't persist, so I kept it up. But most people can't do it, no matter how determined they are. And it's those I worry most about. Crooks are crooks and unfortunately crime often pays.

Thanks for asking.
0 Replies
 
williamhenry3
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2003 11:43 pm
Sofia wrote:

Free speech is not reserved for those criticising the current Presidential administration.


Sofia<

Your F- grade still stands.

Free speech is everyone's right in the United States and has nothing to do with any current presidential administration.

I would also point out that William Jefferson Clinton exited the presidency in January 2001. All you Dubya apologists always drag out Bill Clinton when trying to make a nebulous criticism of Dubya.

Mr. Clinton, Sofia, is just like you and me. He is a private citizen, albeit he does understand the First Amendment. Remember, this year is 2003, and Dubya is president, not Clinton. Okay?

I am also this evening presenting you with the Ann Coulter of Able 2know Award. Your extremely venomous right-wing politics and your dreadful hairstyles resemble each other's.

Do you both think you are chic or is it more at Dixie Chick? You both need a makeover in both politics and hairstyles to resemble 21st century women. Would you both like a gift certificate to Macy's for an overhaul?
Shocked
0 Replies
 
 

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