Are you in favor 0f Roe v Wade being upheld or overturned?

I would add that Bush in his infinite wisdom{to bad he was not aborted}. Has funded large sums to teach or push abstinence but very little if any towards teaching about protection. Another example of his bout with reality.

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Where in the constitution does it refer to abortion??

Precisely my point - the constitution does not speak to the abortion issue so it should therefore be left to the states and to the people. By saying that states could not outlaw or severely limit abortions, the supreme court overstepped the bounds of the constitution. True, they said states could regulate, but they still usurped authority that should have been left with the states, where the people would have a voice.

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cavfancier wrote:

Baldimo wrote:
I wouldn't want to see R vs. W overturned, as much as I would want to see it limited in scope. To use it as a method of birth control is awful and should be outlawed. To use it in extreme cases such as rape and incest would by much more adequate and proper. Make people have to use personal responsibility when it comes to sex and pregnancy.

No offense, but this is one of the dumbest, and most common arguments from conservatives I have encountered personally regarding the abortion issue.

To suggest that women use abortion as "a form of birth control" is pure conjecture, assumption, speculation, pick your word. Abortion, so I've heard, is not really a pleasant experience for a woman.

In general, while I happen to agree with you on certain points, I find your characterization of abortion, and how it should be legalized, rather misguided, and very narrow-minded. In the interests of debate, how do you feel about stem-cell research?

Do you believe that the millions of abortions that have been performed in the last 30 years have all been due to the life of the mother being in danger?

I happen to know 3 women who didn't want to bother with being pregnant and did use abortion as a method of birth control. They didn't use protection and got pregnant.

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I'm with you on rape and incest, and I agree with you on the idea of "personal responsibility" (and well, you kinda do sound like a liberal there, :wink: ) regarding pregnancy, but it does take two to tango. You appear to be putting all the responsibility on the woman, which I don't believe is right.

Your right it does take two to tango, but the ultimate decision to have sex is on the woman. If it weren't with the woman then it would be rape would it not? If people are going to have sex and protection isn't available then shouldn't the woman say no? We have been told for the last 10 years that women have the last word on yes or no when it comes to sex.

Since it does take two to tango should the man the woman is involved in have a say about the abortion? Right now they don't but when it comes to paying for the child the man has no choice. It is an unfair situation the man is in. How do you suppose we handle such situations?

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Baldimo wrote:

... the ultimate decision to have sex is on the woman. If it weren't with the woman then it would be rape would it not?

Wow.

You may be surprised, but quite a lot of men get convicted for rape in Europe, although the women didn't say "no".

Sometimes, it's really better to 'agree' then to be killed.

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Baldimo wrote:

Your right it does take two to tango, but the ultimate decision to have sex is on the woman.

Last I knew, a guy could say "no." He can also choose to put on a condom.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Baldimo wrote:
... the ultimate decision to have sex is on the woman. If it weren't with the woman then it would be rape would it not?

Wow.

You may be surprised, but quite a lot of men get convicted for rape in Europe, although the women didn't say "no".

Sometimes, it's really better to 'agree' then to be killed.

As stated, the decision rests on the women. In almost all cases men are presumed guilty of rape if they even accused.

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Setanta wrote:

It seems apparent that you have never read the majority opinion in Roe v. Wade. The opinion turns of the right of States to regulate the behavior of their citizens, and the court found that States had and continue to have compelling interests in the regulation of abortion. This is not as black and white as Idaho would like to portray it, and it is certainly not a case of the Supremes usurping a power for the Federal government either from the several States or the people. It would help to do your homework before you make such sweeping and unfounded statements.

I disagree. You're right that "The opinion turns of the right of States to regulate the behavior of their citizens, and the court found that States had and continue to have compelling interests in the regulation of abortion," but that compelling interest does not extend to the entirety of the pregnancy. I also emphasize "continue" because the states didn't need

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Baldimo, I am sad that you know 3 women who used abortion as 'birth control', but that's hardly enough of a societal sample to form an opinion about, let alone a law.

As for your views on women and what you feel is their burden of responsibility regarding sex, pregnancy and abortion, I'll prefer to just leave that alone. The women here are fully capable of speaking for themselves.

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I personally find the choice of abortion morally repugnant, but I can also easily imagine situations in which I would not, some of which have been mentioned here.

The fact is the legal status of abortion does little to address the problem (if, in fact, you see it as such), and an outright ban would simply create a new class of millionaire crime syndicates (the illegal abortionists), as well as a vast new group of criminals, and a further dilution of the respect for law, much as prohibition did eighty years ago, while abortion would simply continue as it always has.

It's a lot harder to work for family planning, better economic opportunites for the poor, more effective policies to prevent rape and incest, and to promote the adoption alternative, but its the right thing to do.

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cavfancier wrote:

Baldimo, I am sad that you know 3 women who used abortion as 'birth control', but that's hardly enough of a societal sample to form an opinion about, let alone a law.

As for your views on women and what you feel is their burden of responsibility regarding sex, pregnancy and abortion, I'll prefer to just leave that alone. The women here are fully capable of speaking for themselves.

Children for the last 10 to 15 years have been taught that "NO" means "NO". The state of Ill even stated that a woman can say no in the middle of sex and the man would have to stop right then and there regardless of how close to climax he is. I would say this makes the woman the main decision maker when it comes to sex. Anything other then a solid yes answers is rape and the courts have ruled that way. Men are only responsible for making sure they listen and obey women's decisions and having money ready for a baby they didn't want. Do men have any other option in modern US society?

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Condoms work.

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Baldimo wrote:

Children for the last 10 to 15 years have been taught that "NO" means "NO". The state of Ill even stated that a woman can say no in the middle of sex and the man would have to stop right then and there regardless of how close to climax he is. I would say this makes the woman the main decision maker when it comes to sex. Anything other then a solid yes answers is rape and the courts have ruled that way. Men are only responsible for making sure they listen and obey women's decisions ...

Are you arguing that women should not have the right to terminate sexual intercourse at any point? Do you resent that they can do so? Are you afraid of women abusing this?

I assure you that I want my daughter to have this right.

Baldimo wrote:

...and having money ready for a baby they didn't want. Do men have any other option in modern US society?

As mentioned before (and it doesn't seem to be getting through), use birth control.

Finally, what bearing does any of this have on the question of abortion?

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Are you arguing that women should not have the right to terminate sexual intercourse at any point?

Did I say that they shouldn't have that right?

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Do you resent that they can do so?

Not at all. I have never had a problem with it and have never had the issue come up personally.

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Are you afraid of women abusing this?

Yes I am afraid of it being abused, sex isn't a light switch in the vast majority of people.

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I assure you that I want my daughter to have this right.

I agree that she should have that right, but make sure you speak to her about being careful about getting into such a situation in the first place.

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As mentioned before (and it doesn't seem to be getting through), use birth control.

I agree that birth control should be used, but lots of people don't use birth control. When caught up in the heat of the moment and nothing is available most people will chose to continue and not think of the consequences. If this happens and an up wanted pregnancy happens don't use abortion as an option, except the consequences of what has happened and move on with life.

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Finally, what bearing does any of this have on the question of abortion?

It has to do with the modern day use of abortion. As I stated before and no one answered, do you think the millions of abortions that have been preformed in the last 30 years have fallen under the life of the mother being in danger? Every woman that I know of that has an abortion did so for reasons of birth control and I believe that is the main use of abortion today.

On a side note, I don't want to see abortions granted to teens without their parent's permission. Doing so under minds the control of parents over their children. If they can't have their tonsils removed without parental permission why should they be allowed to have an abortion without parental permission?

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Baldimo wrote:

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It has to do with the modern day use of abortion. As I stated before and no one answered, do you think the millions of abortions that have been preformed in the last 30 years have fallen under the life of the mother being in danger? Every woman that I know of that has an abortion did so for reasons of birth control and I believe that is the main use of abortion today.
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so what...you are not judge nor jury...it is a womans right to her own body...you may think its repugnant...that's your choice...but it is still legal and hopefully will continue to be...

On a side note, I don't want to see abortions granted to teens without their parent's permission. Doing so under minds the control of parents over their children. If they can't have their tonsils removed without parental permission why should they be allowed to have an abortion without parental permission?
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I have known several (since you want to use examples) of young teens impregnated by their fathers...and you want them to get permission from said father...that churns my stomach...and since you cannot walk in a womans shoe...you have no say...as Gloria Steinem once stated.."If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrement..."...

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I have known several (since you want to use examples) of young teens impregnated by their fathers...and you want them to get permission from said father...that churns my stomach

I don't know where you live but that isn't as common as you seem to think it is. The young girl should seek the permission of her mother if that is the case. Worse case scenario the child should tell the school about her father and the school should contact social workers to intervene. To leave a child in an environment such as that is child abuse.

What you are claiming is the same lame argument as back alley abortions. It has been used before, in fact it was the same lame argument used by John Kerry in the debates, but I don't think it warrants a law to stripe all parents of their parental rights. It is a slippery slope argument at best.

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and since you cannot walk in a womans shoe...you have no say

If that is the case then there are tons of people who have no right to comment on all sorts of things. Because I live in a free society, I have a right to say anything I wish. You have to love the first amendment!! Laughing

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as Gloria Steinem once stated.."If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrement

To quote the head femanazi is the same as me quoting Rush Limbaugh. She is the reason society has been trying to neuter men for the last 30 years. Besides if men could get pregnant then we would be women. It is a lame argument just as all of your arguments have been.

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Abortion is a form of birth control and should be used as such. Maybe you mean to say that it shouldn't be used in place of preventive birth control?

I see nothing wrong with 1st trimester abortions. After that maybe it should be harder. If RvW gets overturned it is my sincere hope that we enact legislation immediately to ensure that abortion is safe and legal.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Abortion is a form of birth control and should be used as such. Maybe you mean to say that it shouldn't be used in place of preventive birth control?

I see nothing wrong with 1st trimester abortions. After that maybe it should be harder. If RvW gets overturned it is my sincere hope that we enact legislation immediately to ensure that abortion is safe and legal.

You agree with "We don't need protection, I can get an abortion. You feel that is a valid option for birth control?

That is a lack of personal responsibility on the part of the people.

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I don't see how you could possibly have gotten that from what I said. Abortion is, in the strictest sense, birth control. I feel that is a valid option for those whose preventive birth control methods failed them or who might have had a lapse in judgment that they regret.

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Just a couple of comments:

If R v W is overturned and abortion becomes illegal (except in certain enumerated cases such as life of the mother, rape, etc), then those who can afford to do so will go to other countries. Catch a Virgin Atlantic sale and fly to London from the northeastern US for $325 or less. People who cannot afford to go abroad (and who are much less likely to be able to afford the child) will be the victims of the back-alley abortionists.

Also: People seem to think that there are only two options re the legality of abortion: it is either legal (permitted) or it is illegal. There is a third option: required. There are circumstances in which it is (in my opinion) immoral to give birth. Hmmm: maybe some abortions should be legally required.

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I think there may be a slight misunderstanding among some Americans about what would happen if Roe v. Wade were overruled. Just to ensure that we're all on the same page, overruling Roe would not make abortion illegal, per se. It would allow state governments to regulate abortion beyond the confines of strict scrutiny under Roe and progeny.

The fate of abortion would likely be handed to the states, as was the case pre-Roe. If most Americans actually support abortion rights, this might not amount to a serious change in actual abortion laws in many states. I'm sure some states would ban abortion, but we wouldn't see an abortion-free U.S.

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Are you in favor 0f Roe v Wade being upheld or overturned?

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