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Diversity of Everything but Thought

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:04 am
Setanta wrote:
This entire thread is floated upon "weigtless" evidence . . . say, are we in zero g ? ! ? ! ?


That is your opinion.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:04 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The silly game of proposing that the anecdotal evidence presented in the case amounts to more than diddly squat.

Fox
Quote:
My observations are that the Cato Institute generally gets it right a whole lot more than they get it wrong.


I'm sure you do, as the Cato institute is a right-wing think tank.

Cycloptichorn


Does that mean you will stop using the dailykos as a source?
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:10 am
Setanta wrote:
This entire thread is floated upon "weigtless" evidence . . . say, are we in zero g ? ! ? ! ?


LOL..........very funny. But for the more literal among us (and we all know who they are) let me say that weighted evidence is an actual thing with a definition. And the evidence on this thread is weightless. It is opinion.

<shaking head knowing this explanation will make not one whit of difference for the concrete thinkers among us.>
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:12 am
Foxfyre wrote:

You give the average media outlet/reporter way more credit for doing any serious investigation or analysis than I do. Some of the syndicated columnists--not all--actually do some homework before writing, but the average reporters seem to be mostly just copying each other.


I have no argument with that. For once, we are in agreement. I am no economist, but just by looking up some official figures on the internet, seeing where they go, and then seeing the "analysis" by well paid columnists......let's just say one is tempted to move them from the Fourth Estate down to the Unemployment Line.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:25 am
Foxfyre wrote:


What would be the Cato Institute's motive for chiding the Congressional Budget Office for faulty projections? Or were they just making the point the the CBO projections must be considered educated guesses at best? At the time the CBO was making those projections, there was no Contract with America or Republican revolution that was a factor in the reduced deficits and ultimate balanced budget. (Sometimes I think we should keep the GOP majority in Congress but elect Democrat presidents just for that reason. )


A) the Republicans took over the House and Senate in January of 1995. As you can see, the deficit started plunging in 1993, after many years of fairly steadily going up, up, up. So while the Republicans do indeed deserve credit for continuing to reduce the deficit and moving it into surplus, the important corner was turned starting with Clinton and the Democrats in 1993 and 1994.

I'm not trying to take away credit for what the Republicans did-they do deserve credit-but so do Clinton and the Democrats in 1993 and 1994 for making that vital, dramatic sharp turn.


B) The motivation of Cato Institute in making this statement?

Now I remember the context. The Cato Institute report was not written in the late 1990's it wa written after Bush took office. The issue at hand was the Bush budget, and the deficits it was going to engender. The Congressional Budget Office had released projections that contradicted the deficit projections of the people behind the Bush budget, and the Cato Institute report was supporting the Bush people's projections as opposed to the CBO's.

Hence, the reference to how far off the CBO's projections were in 1991 or 1992-without mentioning that nobody could have seenthe dramatic change of direction that would happen in 1993 as regards deficits. Based on the way things were going in 1991 and 1992, the deficits were certainly headed into sky-high territory, as I am sure you will agree.

I might point out that the CBO projections made in 1991 or 1992 were for years in the future-not for 1991 or 1992. In other words, the CBO was making sky-high projections for what the deficits would be in 1998 or so based on how the deficit was going in the late 80's and early 90's.

Those projections never came true, of course, because Clinton came in and abruptly reversed the direction the deficit was going-later on, with the help of the Republicans.

In the interests of fairness, I will try to dig up the report, or at least the part of it in question, and post it here. I first saw it a few months ago, so it still ought to be there-it was not exactly new when I read if first. That way, you and everyone on this thread can judge for yourself the quality of the Cato Institute analysis on this issue. I found it appalling.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:27 am
Lola wrote:
Setanta wrote:
This entire thread is floated upon "weigtless" evidence . . . say, are we in zero g ? ! ? ! ?


LOL..........very funny.


Lola, you are easily amused.

Lola wrote:
But for the more literal among us (and we all know who they are) let me say that weighted evidence is an actual thing with a definition. And the evidence on this thread is weightless. It is opinion.


"Weighted evidence" is an "actual thing"? Question
Care to provide what you consider to be the definition of "weighted evidence"?

A trier of fact renders its decision by weighing the evidence that is presented to it. It weighs the evidence, and the greater amount of credible evidence sustains the issue that is to be decided. Weight is not a question of mathmatical calculation, but depends entirely on its effect in inducing belief in the trier of fact.

Thus, it is your belief and opinion that the evidence on this thread is weightless. I'm sure you will agree that your opinion in this regard is not conclusive.

Lol wrote:
<shaking head knowing this explanation will make not one whit of difference for the concrete thinkers among us.>


Laughing What exactly were you trying to explain?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:44 am
Keltic, that was an amazing analysis and sooooo well presented from one of you guys that's not quite right of center. And I do appreciate it. Be careful though. You're likely to give those on the left some real credibility Smile

I'm sure I can find something wrong with your analysis, but I've got to make a living in the real world for awhile today so I'll be awhile getting back to it. I will get back to it though. (And now I'm going to worry all day that I won't find anything wrong with it. Smile)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 11:02 am
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Setanta wrote:
And as has been already pointed out in this thread, it is neither good evidence, nor compelling evidence. For anyone reading here who is slow on the uptake, that means it is unconvincing evidence.


So you understand that it is evidence. For the sake of clarity, the next time you might just say what you mean. That would help those of us trying to decipher your musings.


Why play this silly game? There is 'anecdotal evidence' that Jews are criminal, that Bush snorted cocaine plus got a young girl pregnant and paid for her abortion, that witches eat babies in the moonlit forests of Connecticut, that Ronald Reagan and wife based policy decisions on the advices forwarded by their astrologer.


And you can choose to believe that evidence, or to give it no weight. What "silly game" are you talking about?


Boy, you are sure happy in the 'white or black, please' camp, tico. HOW MUCH weight is the issue.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 11:07 am
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Setanta wrote:
And as has been already pointed out in this thread, it is neither good evidence, nor compelling evidence. For anyone reading here who is slow on the uptake, that means it is unconvincing evidence.


So you understand that it is evidence. For the sake of clarity, the next time you might just say what you mean. That would help those of us trying to decipher your musings.


Why play this silly game? There is 'anecdotal evidence' that Jews are criminal, that Bush snorted cocaine plus got a young girl pregnant and paid for her abortion, that witches eat babies in the moonlit forests of Connecticut, that Ronald Reagan and wife based policy decisions on the advices forwarded by their astrologer.


And you can choose to believe that evidence, or to give it no weight. What "silly game" are you talking about?


Boy, you are sure happy in the 'white or black, please' camp, tico. HOW MUCH weight is the issue.


I thought that went without saying, but I'm glad you have grasped this concept. Please try and explain it to your better half.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 11:15 am
Well, you can answer this stuff yourself.

Describe the weight of the anecdotal evidence supporting the thesis that children are being sacrificed in Satanic cults in America?

Or, the weight of evidence that backs up the popular claim that Israel was behind the 9/11 attacks?

Or the weight of evidence (there is lots) that men, like you or I, will cheat on our spouses?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 11:36 am
blatham wrote:
Well, you can answer this stuff yourself.


You're seeking my opinion on some odd and irrelevant topics. Also, I must qualify my responses by advising that I'm not up to speed on all of the evidence that's been presented in support of each thesis, but I'll humor you .....

blatham wrote:
Describe the weight of the anecdotal evidence supporting the thesis that children are being sacrificed in Satanic cults in America?


I've heard about this, but I don't know much about it, or who has said it, so I don't know if they are credible witnesses or not. Therefore, I'm really not in any kind of a position to make a determination one way or the other.

blatham wrote:
Or, the weight of evidence that backs up the popular claim that Israel was behind the 9/11 attacks?


The popularity of this claim is with the wacko nutjobs of the world, and I don't find them to be credible at the outset. It is also not a plausible theory.

blatham wrote:
Or the weight of evidence (there is lots) that men, like you or I, will cheat on our spouses?


I'm aware that men do cheat on their spouses ... and I'm aware of personal accounts from people I know and trust who have advised that they, in fact, have cheated on their spouses. Thus, I would have to say there is a lot of weight to support this claim.


Did any of this help you with anything?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 11:39 am
Let's take a look at Satanic Ritual Abuse. The subject provides a nice heads-up.
Quote:
A survey by Redbook magazine in 1994 found that 70% of American adults believed in the existence of abusive Satanic cults.
Quote:
Thirty-two percent explained away the absence of proof by believing that "the FBI and police ignore evidence because they don't want to admit the cults exist."
link

In fact, I saw an interview with the FBI director who had been put in charge of investigating these matters. He said "We found no physical evidence to support any of the cases charged or believed." When asked regarding how these finding were received (by believers), he responded, "They say 'Well, of course not. Satan would remove the evidence.'"
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 11:41 am
I should add that when social workers (or mental health workers) were briefed (by believers) on SRA, something like half of them (don't recall precisely) went on to diagnose SRA in their patients/clients.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 11:49 am
Another classic case of folks (many, and well-intentioned all) who came to believe something which subsequent careful scientific analysis showed to be quite without GOOD evidentiary support (tons of anecdotal 'evidence' in support existed).
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/programs/transcripts/1202.html
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 12:13 pm
Quote:
Does that mean you will stop using the dailykos as a source?


Nope.

The CATO institute purports to be an independent, non-partisan think-tank, when it is in fact quite conservative in thought and product.

DailyKos makes no bones about its Liberal slant. It also isn't a think-tank, but a weblog. It doesn't typically produce new stories on its own and never produces studies. There really isn't a comparison between the two, as they are different beasts completely.

If DKos purported not to have a Liberal slant then I would be guilty of the same thing, but it doesn't, so I'm not.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 12:22 pm
How exactly does it have a conservative slant? Because you disagree with the findings? Because the CATO institute does not support the extreme liberal position?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 12:27 pm
No, because it consistently supports the conservative position, and ignores those facts which contradict said position, while claiming to be neutral; as was stated by another poster quite well a page or two back.

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cato.html

Quote:
A "libertarian" quasi-academic think-tank which acts as a mouthpiece for the globalism, corporatism, and neoliberalism of its corporate and conservative funders. Cato is an astroturf organization: there is no significant participation by the tiny libertarian minority. They do not fund it or affect its goals. It is a creature of corporations and foundations.


CATO exists to provide conservatives and libertatians with soundbytes, and that's pretty much it.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 12:37 pm
Setanta wrote:
How very snotty of you . . . .

It is time someone pointed out to you--you are famous for transference. I'm just bringing information. You are snotty.
In the media bias study you here cite, it appears that you did not read their disclaimer which immediately preceeds the appendices:

Groseclose and Milyo wrote:
Related, in our attempts to explain these patterns, we in no way claim to have provided the last word on a satisfactory theory. Nor do we claim to have performed an exhaustive review of potential theories in the literature. Rather, the main goal of our research is simply to demonstrate that it is possible to create an objective measure of the slant of the news. Once this is done, as we hope we have demonstrated in this section, it is easy to raise a host of theoretical issues to which such a measure can be applied.


They have created an objective measure of bias in the news. And, they have proceeded to prove that there is a strong bias in news reporting....as they previously said. They are only saying here that the study is not complete. Can't wait to watch it unfold.

You know there's a liberal bias.

Weenies.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 12:39 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
No, because it consistently supports the conservative position, and ignores those facts which contradict said position, while claiming to be neutral; as was stated by another poster quite well a page or two back.

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cato.html

Quote:
A "libertarian" quasi-academic think-tank which acts as a mouthpiece for the globalism, corporatism, and neoliberalism of its corporate and conservative funders. Cato is an astroturf organization: there is no significant participation by the tiny libertarian minority. They do not fund it or affect its goals. It is a creature of corporations and foundations.


CATO exists to provide conservatives and libertatians with soundbytes, and that's pretty much it.

Cycloptichorn


Hmmm... Well, what are your opinions on some of these fine think tanks?

Economic Policy Institute
Brookings Institution
Institute for Policy Studies
Carnegie Endowment
Progressive Policy Institute
Heritage Foundation
Council on Foriegn Relations
Urban Institute
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 12:40 pm
I'll be interested to see if Tico, the very Paladin of reasonable and courteous discourse at this site, shows up to condemn your use of the term "weenies."

By the way, i would appreciate it if when you quote me, you highlight in some manner your interpolations so that they do not appear to be a quote of what i wrote.
0 Replies
 
 

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