0
   

Diversity of Everything but Thought

 
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 07:31 am
I said people became more conservative. I didn't say they became conservative.

That does not translate into not having friends/acquaintances/colleagues who are politically conservative.

<is the full moon having an effect? Confused >
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 07:40 am
Finn Writes
Quote:
One can only wonder why blatham finds it necessary to spew such bilious comments in your direction fox. If you were the simpleton blatham suggests, it's hard to understand why he might spend any time at all in countering your arguments.


Well I don't know either Finn. He says I'm dogmatic (among a few dozen other uncomplimentary adjectives). Interpretation as nearly as I can tell: I hold opinions he disagrees with, and because I don't change my opinions I am dogmatic. He of course does not apply the requirement to change opinions to anyone but conservatives and I seem to have a big bullseye painted on my forehead for this one. I just consider it an illustration of the thread's thesis.

Quote:
Whatever you may or may not be, you are not a simpleton.


Well, thank you but yes sometimes I am. As a strongly extraverted intuitive type, given incomplete criteria, I tend to go with the version that seems to makes the most sense and then have to backtrack or amend as new information comes in. And I put way too much faith in people to be fair and reasonable sometimes.

Quote:
Gosh, could it be that the masculine blatham is dismissive of the feminine foxfyre? Is gender bullying evidenced?

Who knows?


One of my more dogmatic stances is a conviction of the impropriety of judging undeclared motives of others. Smile

Quote:
Ad hominem attacks diminish all who launch them. I could be wrong, but my experience in this forum is that you always, despite provocation, remain civil and engaged in ideas rather than invective. I, for one, appreciate this.


Thank you. I try. I don't always make it. But I try.

Quote:
PS: I have high regard for blatham.


I did too until I found him to be cruelly cutting even as he demonstrated the most grievous offenses of which he was accusing me. I post from liberal, conservative, and everything in between sources to support my views on A2K, and he posts only from clearly liberal sources, but according to him, I'm the one who is deficient in my sources. Smile

Quote:
He is a fuzzy headed liberal, but he strives for clarity, and his intellect is impressive. Like all of us, he is subject to error (tough for a Liberal to acknowledge, but so be it), but his occassional conceit casts a shadowed light upon him.


How can one strive for clarity when clearly expressing contempt for any other point of view? That I and other conservatives have posted unbiased data showing the disparity between liberal and conservative ideology among most university faculties and have backed those up with personal experience and opinion of others including educators is somehow sinister to Mr. Blatham. He has to protect the world from people like me whether he does it with clarity or not. Smile

Quote:
Blatham will cut me slack, but that's because he holds open the hope that he'll get into my pants some day.


:::::cough::::::

Blatham writes
Quote:
Perhaps the three of us can move into a group hug if you use the simple device of considering me a liberal version of John Bolton.


I would just like to consider you as one of those rare liberals who reasons and thinks. However, one needs to reciprocate respect. I regretted very much when you decided to end our friendship.

Lash writes
Quote:
Foxy, if this is already here in the preceding pages I haven't read, just let me know, and I'll delete it.


That piece or one very similar to it has been posted, but it can't be posted enough, Lash. Please don't delete it. Smile

And now it's to the showers for me and off to teach my class whcih interestingly today will focus on the resistance to change during the English Reformation.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 07:56 am
ehBeth's comment. A review.

<my personal experience, since we're covering that off now, is that most of the people I knew at university came out of the system more conservative than when they entered. in reaction to what they experienced? or in agreement with what they were exposed to? I dunno. I didn't much care about them, before or after.>

--------------

There's obviously more than one way to interpret this statement.

I have only "tried to pick a fight" with three individuals on a few occasions here. None of them are involved in this thread. It has been my experience that when sharing opinion on political matters, effort is unnecessary regarding "fighting".

I was merely surprised by ehBeth's comment, and said something about it. Trying to pick a fight looks very different, I think.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 08:03 am
It is not at all obvious that there is more than one way to interpret that statement. Inasmuch as you did not know what sort of political affiliations the students in question had, you had no reason to assume that there was any animus on Beth's part toward those who might be described as conservative. Small wonder it looks like you're trying to pick a fight when you go through such contortions to take offense.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 08:17 am
I hadn't taken offense. As I said, I was just surprised by her comment.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 09:57 am
Lash wrote:
Here's a start.

Foxy, if this is already here in the preceding pages I haven't read, just let me know, and I'll delete it.
*****************

College Faculties A Most Liberal Lot, Study Finds

By Howard Kurtz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, March 29, 2005; Page C01

College faculties, long assumed to be a liberal bastion, lean further to the left than even the most conspiratorial conservatives might have imagined, a new study says.

By their own description, 72 percent of those teaching at American universities and colleges are liberal and 15 percent are conservative, says the study being published this week. The imbalance is almost as striking in partisan terms, with 50 percent of the faculty members surveyed identifying themselves as Democrats and 11 percent as Republicans.

Harvard's faculty of arts and sciences hit President Lawrence Summers with a vote of no confidence after he privately wondered about the abilities of women in science and math. (Steven Senne -- AP)

The disparity is even more pronounced at the most elite schools, where, according to the study, 87 percent of faculty are liberal and 13 percent are conservative.

"What's most striking is how few conservatives there are in any field," said Robert Lichter, a professor at George Mason University and a co-author of the study. "There was no field we studied in which there were more conservatives than liberals or more Republicans than Democrats. It's a very homogenous environment, not just in the places you'd expect to be dominated by liberals."

Religious services take a back seat for many faculty members, with 51 percent saying they rarely or never attend church or synagogue and 31 percent calling themselves regular churchgoers. On the gender front, 72 percent of the full-time faculty are male and 28 percent female.

The findings, by Lichter and fellow political science professors Stanley Rothman of Smith College and Neil Nevitte of the University of Toronto, are based on a survey of 1,643 full-time faculty at 183 four-year schools. The researchers relied on 1999 data from the North American Academic Study Survey, the most recent comprehensive data available.

The study appears in the March issue of the Forum, an online political science journal. It was funded by the Randolph Foundation, a right-leaning group that has given grants to such conservative organizations as the Independent Women's Forum and Americans for Tax Reform.

Rothman sees the findings as evidence of "possible discrimination" against conservatives in hiring and promotion. Even after factoring in levels of achievement, as measured by published work and organization memberships, "the most likely conclusion" is that "being conservative counts against you," he said. "It doesn't surprise me, because I've observed it happening." The study, however, describes this finding as "preliminary."

When asked about the findings, Jonathan Knight, director of academic freedom and tenure for the American Association of University Professors, said, "The question is how this translates into what happens within the academic community on such issues as curriculum, admission of students, evaluation of students, evaluation of faculty for salary and promotion." Knight said he isn't aware of "any good evidence" that personal views are having an impact on campus policies.

"It's hard to see that these liberal views cut very deeply into the education of students. In fact, a number of studies show the core values that students bring into the university are not very much altered by being in college."

Rothman, Lichter and Nevitte find a leftward shift on campus over the past two decades. In the last major survey of college faculty, by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching in 1984, 39 percent identified themselves as liberal.

In contrast with the finding that nearly three-quarters of college faculty are liberal, a Harris Poll of the general public last year found that 33 percent describe themselves as conservative and 18 percent as liberal.

The liberal label that a majority of the faculty members attached to themselves is reflected on a variety of issues. The professors and instructors surveyed are, strongly or somewhat, in favor of abortion rights (84 percent); believe homosexuality is acceptable (67 percent); and want more environmental protection "even if it raises prices or costs jobs" (88 percent). What's more, the study found, 65 percent want the government to ensure full employment, a stance to the left of the Democratic Party.

Recent campus controversies have reinforced the left-wing faculty image. The University of Colorado is reviewing its tenure system after one professor, Ward Churchill, created an uproar by likening World Trade Center victims to Nazis. Harvard's faculty of arts and sciences voted no confidence in the university's president, Lawrence Summers, after he privately wondered whether women had the same natural ability as men in science and math.

The study did not attempt to examine whether the political views of faculty members affect the content of their courses.

(Hope this study is next.)

The researchers say that liberals, men and non-regular churchgoers are more likely to be teaching at top schools, while conservatives, women and more religious faculty are more likely to be relegated to lower-tier colleges and universities.

Top-tier schools, roughly a third of the total, are defined as highly ranked liberal arts colleges and research universities that grant PhDs.

The most liberal faculties are those devoted to the humanities (81 percent) and social sciences (75 percent), according to the study. But liberals outnumbered conservatives even among engineering faculty (51 percent to 19 percent) and business faculty (49 percent to 39 percent).

The most left-leaning departments are English literature, philosophy, political science and religious studies, where at least 80 percent of the faculty say they are liberal and no more than 5 percent call themselves conservative, the study says.

"In general," says Lichter, who also heads the nonprofit Center for Media and Public Affairs, "even broad-minded people gravitate toward other people like themselves. That's why you need diversity, not just of race and gender but also, maybe especially, of ideas and perspective."


This piece has been posted earlier, and discussed. From the piece...
Quote:
Knight said he isn't aware of "any good evidence" that personal views are having an impact on campus policies.

"It's hard to see that these liberal views cut very deeply into the education of students. In fact, a number of studies show the core values that students bring into the university are not very much altered by being in college."
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 10:13 am
Because the man isn't aware of *good* evidence means to me he is aware of evidence, but has decided it's not good, based on some criteria he doesn't share, and likely begins and ends with his own opinion.

Note "it's hard to see"---> obscured view doesn't negate the existence of a thing.

cuts "very" deeply----> how deeply is very deeply? But it does cut deeply...? or it merely cuts?

a number of studies? What number? Does a larger number of studies show the opposite?

the student's values are not very much altered? But they ARE altered? Who gets to decide what constitutes VERY altered? A liberal professor? Or a liberal journalist? Or a liberal pollster...?

That snippet says nothing.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 10:35 am
I had this professor one time, a very well known professor at that, and he was some kinda weirdo liberal radical. Anyway we spent most of our class time pouring sand into craniums of long dead nekid apes. Well, this one time right there in the classroom he wondered aloud (everyone could hear him) he said "I wonder if we would have difference results if we used grains of rice instead of sand?" Well, right off I knew I was never voting conservative again, I was that influenced.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 01:57 pm
See!?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 02:00 pm
My history advisor in college was, literally, a card-carrying member of the CPUS (Communist Party of the United States). All he cared about was making sure you signed in for office hours so he could keep the department's academic committee off his back . . .
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 03:07 pm
Quote:
Knight said he isn't aware of "any good evidence" that personal views are having an impact on campus policies.

"It's hard to see that these liberal views cut very deeply into the education of students. In fact, a number of studies show the core values that students bring into the university are not very much altered by being in college


Just dealing with the clarity issue here, if we are to take Knight's opinion at face value and agree that there is no 'good evidence' that personal views are having an impact on campus policies nor 'cut very deeply into the education of students', then wouldn't it follow that all expressed views would have little or no impact on policies anywhere? Could we conclude that expressed views have little or no impact on anybody's education?

So why do some exhibit immediate apoplexy at politically incorrect rhetoric? Why all the sound and fury over Lawrence Summer's remarks? What does it matter what a Ward Churchill teaches? If it doesn't matter, let's give creationism equal time in scientific theory. Lets push mostly conservative reading choices in the English, Polysci, and Sociology departments. Let's just disregard Kant, Hegel and Nietzsche and encourage study of Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Lewis. If it doesn't matter, then it couldn't hurt for the students to have all conservative professors could it? Even if they all graduated from Oral Roberts or Bob Jones University? I mean if the current policies don't cut deeply into the students' education, then it would logically follow that a reverse situation would have no significant impact either.

Or we could conclude that Knight didn't put a whole lot of thought into that statement before he said it.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 03:23 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
Knight said he isn't aware of "any good evidence" that personal views are having an impact on campus policies.

"It's hard to see that these liberal views cut very deeply into the education of students. In fact, a number of studies show the core values that students bring into the university are not very much altered by being in college


<snip>

Or we could conclude that Knight didn't put a whole lot of thought into that statement before he said it.


Or it could mean that the studies are out there, confirming that people who go to college and university are smart and strong enough to make their own decisions about policy and politics - and that their core values stand up to whatever they are faced with. Remember all those religious Americans? Those values must mean something to them.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 03:29 pm
Fox--

Well done.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 03:34 pm
I don't think much of the thesis of this thread has focused on influence or changing core values, however. I think it has focused on students being able to get a complete education and being able to have core values without fear of retribution from a vindictive professor. However, I do think those students who do not have an opinion formed can be influenced by a charismatic and popular professor. This only emphasizes the need for opportunity for exposure to differing points of view to avoid indoctrination instead of education.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 06:19 pm
I think I read that the hiring practices and tenure will be reviewed to see if there is an institutional discrimination.

I don't know how else one can possibly explain the incredible disparity.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 06:24 pm
Quote:
I don't know how else one can possibly explain the incredible disparity.

Really?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 06:27 pm
That's right.

Do you have an explanation.



<My Sardonica 2000 is aimed at yer butt.>
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 07:58 pm
Was browsing on Amazon for some light reading to take with me on vacation next week.

I think South Park Conservatives : The Revolt Against Liberal Media Bias by Brian C. Anderson is just the ticket Smile It sounds hilarious, but I'd buy it on the strength of the last 3 paragraphs of the following review:

"What may astonish baby boomer and Generation X conservatives, however, is the panic attacks that the monolithic campus left has suffered due to the recent emergence of Republican student organizations. In the chapter, "Campus Conservatives Rising," Anderson explores the arrogance of the moveon.org professors. Anyone who has ever read The Shadow University will be well-familiar with the totalitarian efforts of our pseudo-scholars to squelch difference if they happen to encounter it on the way to their teach-ins. Imagine what hard working, tuition paying, fortune squandering, parents think when they see that their freshman daughter's syllabus for English contains, as its goal, to explore the hidden "homosexuality, pederasty, and incest" facets of the great works of western civilization.

The recent attempt to pass an Academic Bill of Rights has proved that the champagne socialists possess bubbly but no clothes. Anderson recounts a legislative hearing concerning the bill's passage, when a philosophy department chair walked up to a student and jammed him in the chest saying, "I will sue your f--king a-- if this bill passes." Yet, amid such bleakness, South Park Conservatives finds hope as the author documents the exponential growth of the right in the academy- even within the leftist redoubts of the Ivy League.

Even if conservadom reached the same amount of people as the mainstream media and Hollywood, reason never competes with the flushed Night Train buzz of emotion in the minds of youth. Such minute points aside, Brian Anderson has powerfully introduced the larger world to the reality of a growing, and occasionally breeding, block of conservatives that clusterbomb liberal orthodoxies. Allow me to speak on the behalf of Kyle, Stan, Cartman and Dennis Miller when I iconoclastically thank him for his efforts."


Squelching pseudo-scholars? Champagne socialists? LOL! Picking it up tomorrow Smile

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895260190/ref=ase_mrsnewmaspageofa/104-0184904-3927166?v=glance&s=books
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 08:06 pm
Weee-hah!!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 09:29 pm
Smile
0 Replies
 
 

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