0
   

Diversity of Everything but Thought

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 12:45 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
One has to wonder why one so offended and contemptuous of the content of the thread would continue to visit and post in it.


Frankly, because the idea you are pushing here is deeply dangerous to liberty and to the pursuit of truth.

You are pushing propaganda. The claims made by yourself and by Horowitz and others connected to the conservative movement regarding universities, their role, and their activities are demonstrably false. The reasons given for the entire endeavor (you are 'seeking intellectual diversity') are either purposefully disengenuous or mis-informed. The actual motive (of Horowitz and others, if not you, but I think you too) is to propogate a particular set of ideas and values through enforced placement of a personnel within the university setting.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 12:48 pm
Fox Wrote:
Quote:
The documented 'evidence' my dear Dys, was the scientific studies referenced in the post and was also partially based on the credentials and reputation of the writer expressing a conclusion. Now then, you can honorably say that the 'evidence' does not PROVE a liberal bias on college campuses. I have not said, I don't believe, that it did, and if I did say that it was unintentional and an error.


That's just the thing; the scientific studies you referenced are tangential to the argument you are putting forth. They provide no support for your argument whatsoever. We've gone over this again and again, without a significant rebuttal from you on the point whatsoever. Do you understand what I am saying? Seriously.

The Neg side of an argument has to present zero evidence in order to win the argument. The entire purpose of the Neg position is to disprove the (ridiculous) theory put forth by the Aff. position.

Quote:
Also as clarification here, could someone show me where it is mandated that this is a 'debate forum'?


From http://www.able2know.com/forums/ :

Quote:
Politics Join us in lively political debate of the day. Democrats, republicans, independents, conservatives, liberals, centrists discuss government in action and campaign for favored changes in government.


Seems to be a debate forum to me.

But that's beside the point. THe point is, you presented your (ridiculous) opinion as a fact. You used anecdotal evidence as proof. You made the mistake of falling into the same trap as the author you cited earlier, using non-correllating statistics to support your argument. Not only does it make your argument look bad, it also calls into question the ability of the sources you are quoting as anecdotal sources (apparently they don't know how statistics work, either).

Now that your silly proposition has been shown to have no factual merit, you have retreated to the position that it is 'your opinion only' and act very attacked, when in reality it is your own argument which has opened you up to such criticism. You claim that 'noone has disproven it, no evidence against what I am saying has been shown,' but that's a Black Swan logical fallacy, and we'll have none of it here. Either you need to reconsider your forms of argumentation, or you need to work harder to keep your opinions seperate from your arguments, and, I suspect, reality.

Why do we keep posting? Because of the question Lola asked earlier in the thread.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 01:08 pm
[my comments are in boldface blue]

Ican, I suggest you read the entire thread before you present yourself as an expert on what I have or have not offered. [I do not believe I have presented myself as an expert. I am not expert on the topic being discussed here. I read your references.]

So I have offered some evidence that things are not as bad as Foxfyre claims.[I agree]

I have offered unambiguous criteria for what I would consider persuasive evidence.[I agree]

Do not mistake mild or polite for timid. I will not mistake blustering for well-informed.[/quote][I didn't make either mistake. I define a timid argument to be one in which the arguer challenges the evidence of another but avoids providing her/his own evidence.]


[You ... have stated the proposition:]

Quote:
Ican, that's a load of what's coming out of the backside of those pigs.


[Please be more specific about what "that's" refers to, and then provide some evidence to support your proposition. Factual evidence and/or logic will serve adequately as some evidence.]
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 01:38 pm
ican711nm wrote:
[my comments are in boldface blue]

Ican, I suggest you read the entire thread before you present yourself as an expert on what I have or have not offered. [I do not believe I have presented myself as an expert. I am not expert on the topic being discussed here. I read your references.]

You stated that I had not offered counter arguments to Foxfyre's. That statement is false.

ican711nm wrote:
Do not mistake mild or polite for timid. I will not mistake blustering for well-informed.[I didn't make either mistake. I define a timid argument to be one in which the arguer challenges the evidence of another but avoids providing her/his own evidence.]

Then you need to re-think your definition of "timid." Or even "timid argument." Challenging the evidence of another is a perfectly valid approach to refuting an argument. One does not have to prove the opposite.

ican711nm wrote:
[You ... have stated the proposition:]

Quote:
Ican, that's a load of what's coming out of the backside of those pigs.


[Please be more specific about what "that's" refers to, and then provide some evidence to support your proposition. Factual evidence and/or logic will serve adequately as some evidence.]

"That" refers to the idea that one must prove one's own argument to be true before it is possible to impeach another's argument. We have addressed this particular issue many times; you are free to have a different opinion but I will call "bullshit" (or in this case, "pigshit") every time you try to present that particular fallacy.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 01:42 pm
I have to agree with Drew; it is a commonly understood fact that the burden of proof is on the aff. side of an argument. The Neg. side has no requirement to even present a case of their own; only to disprove the Aff. by showing how their case is faulty.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 03:09 pm
Well the only criteria anyone has used to show that the thesis is faulty is by their own opinions which, without anything to support them, can definitely be construed to be faulty. Sort of leaves us with a paradox doesn't it?

P.S. Cyclop, there is NOTHING in the link you provided that mandates this as a debate forum. It does have the word 'debate' in the description of the Forum, but it isn't even included in the Debate category. Of note, even in the Debate category, there is strong implication that exploration of ideas and thoughts are encouraged and just fine. I think I shall not feel obligated to follow your version of what proper debate or expressions of opinion should be, but will respect that your version is your preference.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 03:15 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Well the only criteria anyone has used to show that the thesis is faulty is by their own opinions which, without anything to support them, can definitely be construed to be faulty. Sort of leaves us with a paradox doesn't it?


You have offered your opinions and how you formed them.

I have offered my opinions and how I formed them.

Neither is persuaded by the other.

No paradox here.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 03:17 pm
Not when you understand the situation Drewdad, and thank you. I actually very much appreciate your point of view on that.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 03:28 pm
If we were to only have proper debates in this forum, it would only be 6 pages deep and have 15 posters...
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 03:43 pm
This isn't about rules, for christ sake.

One doesn't bother to follow logical 'rules' just to meet some third party's arbitrary requirement...it's so that you don't talk - and more important - so that you don't think stupidly.

You look for and ask for good evidence not because someone says you should, but because that's how you are much much more likely to end up with correct premises and conclusions.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 08:08 pm
I also elect not to allow certain others to decide what is and is not thinking or talking stupidly. Fox guarding the henhouse and all that. . .
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 08:12 pm
very appropriate foxy, I've always been of the conviction that dems and repubs alike eat more chicken and pork'n'beans than anyone around.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jan, 2005 09:12 am
Praise the U.S. and its founders and you need psychotherapy. This is apparently what this Kuwaiti student, attending college in California, is learning from one professor. Many students in American universities are being indoctrinated and silenced by biased professors who hate America.  America saved my life and the lives of my family.  How can I not speak out? 

The local media picked up the story of what happened to me.   Professor Woolcock then filed a school grievance accusing me, under section 5 of Foothill's grievance code, of an "act or threat of intimidation or general harassment."  If you are confused by this, so was I.  Foothill's Dean of Student Affairs, Don Dorsey, would not let me see the grievance as filed but he summarized it for me by saying, "Professor Woolcock feels harassed by your having mentioned his name to the media."   

As a result of growing media attention I am told that Foothill's Board of Trustees has received hundreds of e-mails.  I came to this country to study American political institutions and I have certainly been getting a crash course.  I've discovered that, as a tax-payer funded college, Foothill has a 5 member publicly elected Board of Trustees who care passionately about Education. 

Ironically, as I was going through all of this I learned that California State Senator Bill Morrow was introducing the Academic Bill of Rights to the State Legislature to defend academic freedom and intellectual diversity on California's campuses.  As a result of my own experience and the many stories I have heard from other Foothill students, I am helping to form a chapter of Students for Academic Freedom to get my college and my state to adopt this bill. You can encourage Foothill's Board of Trustees to pass the Academic Bill of Rights as official school policy by emailing them at http://www.fhda.edu/about_us/board/.

Ahmad Al-Qloushi was born and raised in Al-Shaab, Kuwait where he attended English language school.  He recently became President of Foothill's College Republicans.  He is a Political-Science major at Foothill College.  Please e-mail Ahmad at [email protected].
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jan, 2005 09:30 am
Of course that's only one person's observations, JW, and is apparently not worthy of discussion no matter how many such anecdotes are presented.

Here's another though from Haaretz International:

Quote:
Recently in the humanities faculties in the United States anti-Israeli and anti-American theories and basic assumptions have been disseminated, which are usually attributed to intellectual circles in Europe. "The post-colonialist vision has prevailed for many years now in academia as a means of understanding texts," says Professor Robert (Uri) Alter, a lecturer in Hebrew literature at the University of California at Berkeley. According to the standard bearers of post-colonialism, "The Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular are perceived as people of the Third World and as victims of colonialism. According to their mistaken concepts on race, the Arabs are perceived as dark-skinned and the Israelis as white - the last offshoot of Western colonialism."

Academics with marginal status

This position has generally not attracted a following outside the universities. "People in academia in the United States have very, very marginal status," says Wolosky. "Their only way to feel politically relevant is through ephemeral pseudo-political rhetoric, which though it is harmful is very far from real political involvement."
Entire article at
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=198969&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=198969
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jan, 2005 09:51 am
A friend just pointed out that the article may not be accessible after a day or two, so I am going to post the entire thing for possible future reference.

`Demon Israel' and the ivory tower

By Noga Tarnopolsky

Dr. Shira Wolosky, a lecturer in literature at the department of American studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, found it hard to understand why no one present got up and protested and why such silence prevailed at a conference held a few months ago at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

"It was a conference on "The Narrative of Identity," relates Wolosky, "and there was a young woman from academia there who spoke about censorship in the media. She said that they deal with the Twin Towers all the time and play down the attack on the Pentagon, because they do not want bin Laden to be perceived as a military commander who attacks justified military targets. Then she added that the brutal Israeli occupation is what is responsible for attacks in the United States. I sat there in total shock. Never mind the attack on Israel, but why didn't any of the people present get up to defend the United States? Afterward, when I asked my colleagues why they hadn't reacted, they answered me that anyone who holds those opinions can expect a brilliant career in American academia."

Last vestige of colonialism

While support for Israel among the general public in America has only increased during the past year - according to most of the public opinion surveys that have been conducted there - in the leftist circles of the intelligentsia in the United States a campaign of hatred and delegitmization is being conducted against it. This campaign, which gained momentum after September 11, in fact began after the Gulf War. Israel was perceived as the major cause of suffering in the Arab states, and therefore as the factor behind their desperate behavior.

Recently in the humanities faculties in the United States anti-Israeli and anti-American theories and basic assumptions have been disseminated, which are usually attributed to intellectual circles in Europe. "The post-colonialist vision has prevailed for many years now in academia as a means of understanding texts," says Professor Robert (Uri) Alter, a lecturer in Hebrew literature at the University of California at Berkeley. According to the standard bearers of post-colonialism, "The Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular are perceived as people of the Third World and as victims of colonialism. According to their mistaken concepts on race, the Arabs are perceived as dark-skinned and the Israelis as white - the last offshoot of Western colonialism."

Academics with marginal status

This position has generally not attracted a following outside the universities. "People in academia in the United States have very, very marginal status," says Wolosky. "Their only way to feel politically relevant is through ephemeral pseudo-political rhetoric, which though it is harmful is very far from real political involvement."

In contrast to Europe, where the intellectuals are afforded pulblic status, the positions of professors in the United States do not reach the ears of the people in positions of power. Even in the corridors of prestigious universities like Harvard and Stanford, no one believes that the president of the United States takes an interest in the debate between Edward Said, the important post-colonialist thinker at Columbia University in New York, and Professor Fuad Ajami of Johns Hopkins University in Washington, who calls for Western democracy in the Arab states.

Those who come in contact with these theories are mostly young students who are easily influenced. A first-year student, a boy of 18 from a traditional Jewish home, showed up one day at Professor Alter's office at Berkeley, in a state of shock after the class in which he was studying had accepted calmly the section man's comparison between Israel and the Nazis. Nevertheless, thus far most students have not been swept up into anti-Israeli activities. At Columbia University, lecturers have cancelled classes to participate in pro-Palestinian demonstrations, but the students did not follow them.

Marjorie Perloff, a lecturer at Stanford University, argues that most of the attacks on Israel in academia stem from the fact that "the students who demonstrated against the Vietnam War are now about 50, and they dream of a return to the glory days when anti-American positions were considered bon ton. In my opinion, these same academics tend to attack Israel because of the similarity between the two countries. The universities are similar and the curricula are similar and they look like us - and therefore every anti-Israeli demonstration is in fact and anti-American demonstration."

Never mind the facts

Israeli academics who taught this past year at American universities were surprised at the strength of the anti-Israeli propaganda. For Dr. Liora Brosh, who teaches comparative literature at a college that is part of the New York State University system, since September 11, the academic year was "a nightmare. An entire year of attacks, even in the corridors, even in staff meetings and conferences. There are posters hanging calling for action against Israel, courses on the `narrative' of the Palestinian struggle. In fact, there is an unquestioned assumption apparently that Israel and the Israelis are the bad guys. Of course, it is all presented in academic language that is neutral and supposedly free of political positions. But what comes out of this neutrality is that the state of Israel is a classic colonial project, and according to the post-colonialist approach, it has no right to exist."

Literature Professor Dan Meron has been lecturing for many years at the Hebrew University and at Columbia University in New York. "It is very difficult for Israelis in the American academic arena," he says. "To understand this you have to distinguish between the public and the media, which more or less are sympathetic to Israel, and the very harsh anti-Israeli propaganda that is disseminated in academia. This is propaganda that comes wrapped in an academic hue, as an intellectual attack against Zionism and against the state of Israel." This year Meron offered his students a course on the history of Zionism to counter "all the courses that condemn it."

Professor Moshe Idel, a lecturer in Jewish thought at the Hebrew University, taught at a number of American universities during the past year. "In American academia there is a demonization of Israel. At lunch they would talk about the 500 killed in Jenin as if it were a fact. At least 50 percent of the people bought the Arab propaganda, and even when the facts became known, no one retracted anything he had said."

Marjorie Perloff also argues: "They aren't looking for facts. They just want to express firm and self-righteous geo-political opinions, and hope to influence someone. There is a large degree of ignorance about the subject. Most of the professors who attack do not know anything about the history of the state of Israel, but they are big experts on theories like Marxism or post-colonialism. There is quite a lot of anti-Semitism here."

Sympathy in the social sciences

It is hard to understand what the comprehensive practical suggestion is to counter the anti-Israeli propaganda in American academia, if there is any such suggestion. A look at the many pamphlets that were distributed there this year - including those that called for a boycott of Israeli academics (it must be noted that among the signatories to them were Israeli academics) - and a survey of the Internet chat rooms devoted to the subject have come up with nothing. In almost every chat and every pamphlet there is a sentence - polite, distant, academic - that compares Israel to the Nazis in Germany or to the whites who ruled South Africa. It is not clear whether Israeli democracy or its multi-cultural make-up is known to the writers. The word "occupation" is repeated in them many times, but it is not exactly clear what they mean by it and it is apparent that most of the writers are not familiar with the geographical dimensions of the state of Israel or with the history of the conflict. "The occupation of a native people" - this has been Israel's main policy aim throughout its history, according to these texts.

And if the problem is an occupation, the solution is clear: Leave. "The extremists among those who hold these ideas don't care where the Israelis will go," explains Alter. "They see us as a demographic mistake - Europeans mixed with Americans who settled on Arab lands that don't belong to them. When a state of Palestine arises from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, the Jews will be able to stay there as a minority or get visas to someplace else."

The anti-Israeli spirit at humanities faculties in the United States is especially evident in comparision with social science faculties. There, after the terror attacks of September 11, the Israelis were perceived in a different way, among other things as experts on terror and dealing with it. Akiva Cohen, a professor of communications at Tel Aviv University, taught at Columbia University last year alongside Professor Dan Meron. According to him, "I did not feel any expression of anti-Israeli sentiment there, at least not at the journalism school. "

His wife, Dr. Esther Cohen, a clinical psychologist who worked at New York University, found herself becoming overnight the local expert on traumatic states in children. "Anyone who has worked in Israel is apparently an expert on trauma," she says. "There was astonishment at our experience. The principal of one school told me that I come from a different planet, when I advised him to hold a discussion in the classroom after the death of the father of one of the children in the terror attack. `But it's a personal thing,' he said to me. They didn't understand much, but they were very open."

According to Professor Avraham Balaban, who has been teaching for 15 years at the University of Florida, the difference between the humanities and the social sciences stems from "the nature of their methods. In the social sciences they like to work with measurable and quantifiable data. The method is focused and systematic. In the humanities, the post-colonial theory is not linked to data or facts, but to gut feeling. The interest is in the narratives and the processes and it is very easy these days to adopt the Palestinian narrative."

However, in rare cases the political circumstances have also led to positive sentiments. Professor Nurit Gertz of the film department at Tel Aviv University taught last year at Yale University in Connecticut. "I taught a course on Palestinian and Israeli film. I was sure it was going to be very difficult. The lesson on September 11, which took place during the attacks without us knowing about them, was an excellent lesson. At the end of the semester we succeeded in understanding the two sides and the two stories through film. We learned to listen, and we saw the two wars - the War of Independence and the Nakba [the Catasrophe] - as the same event."

With respect to the attacks that were directed against Israelis this year, Gertz says: "It's fascism to identify me with the state, as if all of us were Sharon and all of us were soldiers. I am partner to some of the criticism that was directed at Israel, but not to the total rejection of the society and everything in it."

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=198969&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=198969
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jan, 2005 09:55 am
Interesting exercise to type "Ahmad Al-Qloushi" into google.

gop.usa...frontpagemag...collegegop.org...students for academic freedom...respublica.usa blogspot...patriots for bush...blogs for bush...etc

Nothing else, just the conservative echo chamber doing their endless repeat of the same story...with no verification...no interviews with the professor or other of his students. No surprise, any of that.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jan, 2005 09:59 am
Quote:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17591
re author...
Quote:
Henry Siegman is a Senior Fellow on the Middle East at the Council on Foreign Relations. He is a former executive head of the American Jewish Congress and the Synagogue Council of America, and has served as general secretary of the American Association for Middle East Studies. (December 2004)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jan, 2005 10:10 am
I wonder if the scientific studies that have been conducted showed that more than 90% of the faculty in U.S. public universities were registered Republicans and/or professed the primarily neo-conservative viewpoint, and especially if numerous students were protesting discrimination as a result of that situation, how the discussion in this thread would be going? Do you suppose the data would be so quickly pooh poohed or held in contempt?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jan, 2005 10:15 am
blatham wrote:
Interesting exercise to type "Ahmad Al-Qloushi" into google.

gop.usa...frontpagemag...collegegop.org...students for academic freedom...respublica.usa blogspot...patriots for bush...blogs for bush...etc

Nothing else, just the conservative echo chamber doing their endless repeat of the same story...with no verification...no interviews with the professor or other of his students. No surprise, any of that.


Does that mean you believe the story to not be true? Or that you wish it not to be true?

It's interesting that you can wave off a story like that so nonchalantly...
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jan, 2005 10:44 am
McGentrix wrote:
blatham wrote:
Interesting exercise to type "Ahmad Al-Qloushi" into google.

gop.usa...frontpagemag...collegegop.org...students for academic freedom...respublica.usa blogspot...patriots for bush...blogs for bush...etc

Nothing else, just the conservative echo chamber doing their endless repeat of the same story...with no verification...no interviews with the professor or other of his students. No surprise, any of that.


Does that mean you believe the story to not be true? Or that you wish it not to be true?

It's interesting that you can wave off a story like that so nonchalantly...


McG

What I'm pointing to is an old intelligence/propaganda technique...spread out a story, an idea, a derogation, etc from multiple sources. The multiplicity lends itself to our propensity to accept as factual (unreflectively) that which we hear many times, or from many sources. But the veracity of the story, idea, etc remains unbolstered by anything other than repetition. It's effective, and that's why it's been done for a very long time.

What veracity do I give this account? Not much, by itself. Not because I don't think some professor might have acted and spoken as the fellow claims (how many professors in colleges and universities are there in the US? A hundred thousand?) but because the account is not verified. And because it is so perfectly constructed to match the propaganda line.

Give me verification even a significant minority of other students present at interactions between the student and professor, give me the findings of whatever investigation was done, and finally, give me access to this student's email. I'd settle for the first two. But the second one would, I'll just betcha, include prior communications between the fellow and 'handlers'.

I keep telling you guys to stretch out the range of what information sources you attend to. Almost all of you here who refer to yourselves as conservatives are linked into this echo chamber and quote from it repeatedly and promiscuously. You remain, often, surprisingly unaware of how such singularity of source opens you up for accepting propaganda. And you remain, again surprisingly, content to ignore the connections between the sources in this echo chamber...the personnel, the funding, the mission statements, the carbon-copy statements, etc.
0 Replies
 
 

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