0
   

Diversity of Everything but Thought

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 05:15 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
...
It is your argument that a problem exists in 'many' schools; you have been unable to provide evidence that this is so. Therefore, until such evidence can be shown, there is no reason to mandate any sort of diversity.

Even if foxfyer's proposition is proven true, there still may be "no reason to mandate any sort of diversity." There may be better more effective solutions. One proposal made here was for a consumer's union kind of annual evaluation of diversity based on Horowitz's criteria.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
... Haven't you figured out that you've lost yet? This is getting rather sad, the way you keep circling your wagons around nothing but anecdotal opinion and zero evidence. You do realize this is a debate forum, correct? Cycloptichorn


Foxfyer's proposition is that a majority of teachers in American classrooms are intolerant of political diversity. Foxfyer admits she does not possess conclusive evidence to prove this proposition, and is at this time actually undecided as to whether it is generally true or not.

However, Foxfyer has provided some evidence to support her proposition. Some of her evidence includes Horowitz's testimony, some includes testimony from members of her own family, and some includes testimony from some of her acquaintenances. All such testimony constitutes some evidence, but, as she readily admits, not conclusive evidence.

I guess your proposition is that Foxfyer's proposition is not true. I guess that is your proposition because I don't recall you actually stating your proposition. Furthermore, I don't recall you providing any evidence whatsoever to support your proposition.

Some folks who support a negative proposition, claim they are excused from providing evidence for such a proposition because one cannot prove a negative proposition (I think one cannot prove a positive proposition either, but that's another discussion). However, one can provide some evidence to support a negative proposition.

Such evidence can be direct: for example, one can provide some evidence that pigs don't fly when not carried by something that does fly. This can be accomplished by pushing say a thousand pigs out the cargo doors of several airplanes flying at 10,000 feet. If none of those thousand fly, that constitutes some evidence, but not conclusive evidence, pigs don't fly when not carried by something that does fly.

Such evidence can be indirect: for example one can provide some evidence that the earth is not flat by proving it is curved (I'm Smile an expert witness on that one).

So until you provide some evidence to support your proposition, you Cyclo' need to answer your own question about yourself
Quote:
Haven't you figured out that you've lost yet?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 05:35 pm
PDiddie wrote:
Same crap, different day.


hmmm... yep, guess that about covers it.

good article btw. i vaguely remember the guy from when i was a kid.

the other night i was amazed to see that robert tilton is still in action.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 05:39 pm
Conversely Icon, if ONE of those pigs should fly it would not conclusively prove that all pigs can fly, but it would prove that it is possible for a pig to fly.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 05:52 pm
http://www.uselesscreations.com/pigs/screen4.jpg
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 06:01 pm
Ican

Simple point...burden of proof falls to the person making the claim. Foxfyre initially posted the Post article and is forwarding the claim (here, as in many other threads previously). The burden is hers, no one else's, and she has not presented anything other than anecdotal data for which there is converse anecdotal evidence.

As to her 'some evidence', fine. Of course, there's not much one couldn't find some evidence for...cats have three legs, Catholic bishops can't be trusted with little boys, George Bush spoke honestly.

But this isn't really about diversity, or intellectual integrity, or greater freedom in universities, and it is certainly not about the pursuit of truth. And we just aren't going to let her get away with the pretence of goal, nor with the shoddy reasoning.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 12:12 am
ican711nm wrote:
I guess your proposition is that Foxfyer's proposition is not true. I guess that is your proposition because I don't recall you actually stating your proposition. Furthermore, I don't recall you providing any evidence whatsoever to support your proposition.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1080607#1080607

ican711nm wrote:
Some folks who support a negative proposition, claim they are excused from providing evidence for such a proposition because one cannot prove a negative proposition (I think one cannot prove a positive proposition either, but that's another discussion). However, one can provide some evidence to support a negative proposition.

Such evidence can be direct: for example, one can provide some evidence that pigs don't fly when not carried by something that does fly. This can be accomplished by pushing say a thousand pigs out the cargo doors of several airplanes flying at 10,000 feet. If none of those thousand fly, that constitutes some evidence, but not conclusive evidence, pigs don't fly when not carried by something that does fly.

Such evidence can be indirect: for example one can provide some evidence that the earth is not flat by proving it is curved (I'm Smile an expert witness on that one).

So until you provide some evidence to support your proposition, you Cyclo' need to answer your own question about yourself
Quote:
Haven't you figured out that you've lost yet?

Shocked

Ican, that's a load of what's coming out of the backside of those pigs.

But in rebuttal... http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1080779#1080779
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 08:20 am
And then there are those who presume to criticize others for the way they express themselves or in how they choose to enjoy the forum while requiring nothing of the same from themselves. But then it is a diversity of thought column, so I suppose that is a form of diversity. Just my observation and opinion of course.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 10:51 am
No, we're just tired of hearing the same inane things thrown up, sans any sort of evidence.

If I advanced the argument that 'conservatives are taking over our nation's elementary schools through their childish behavior, which is corrupting our children,' and was serious about such a silly proposition, what would be your first question?

That's right. It would be, 'Evidence? Link?'

To which I respond "Well, there is no actual evidence, but I and 5 people I know agree, so there must be something to it. Plus, I have studies that show that the quality of elementary education has dropped tremedously, due to... well, something. It must be because of conservatives."

To which any reasonable person would say, "Your argument is weak, if you can't come up with evidence, maybe you shouldn't say inflamatory and crazy things."

For the last time, anecdotal evidence is great when it comes to forming your opinion; it means nothing in a debate! This thread has been basically nothing more than a forum for Fox to continually discuss how she believes that liberals are ruining college. Every time she is challenged on it, challenged on the lack of evidence, she falls back on the lame-ass "people can express themselves differently, boo hoo <sniff> why are you all picking on me?" defense. It's f*cking tiresome.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:06 am
WAH!
(waves flag)
WAH!
(Thumps bible)
WAH!
(Shakes Pompoms)
WAH!!! Rolling Eyes :wink: Cool
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:32 am
One has to wonder why one so offended and contemptuous of the content of the thread would continue to visit and post in it.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:33 am
kinda like driving by the scene of a horrible accident and just having to take a look.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:35 am
DrewDad wrote:
Ican, that's a load of what's coming out of the backside of those pigs. But in rebuttal... http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1080779#1080779
Laughing
My post to which you refer was addressed to Cycloptichorn who I infer from his comments perceived his discussion with Foxfyre to be a debate. In particular, he claimed Foxfyre hasn't provided any evidence to support her proposition. I think she did provide some evidence to support her proposition and I said what I thought that evidence was. Cycloptichorn on the other hand appears to me to be the one who hasn't provided any evidence to support his apparently unstated but nevertheless implied proposition. If he thinks he has, all he need do is repost it.

You on the otherhand with regard to Foxfyre, have taken what I perceive to be the "you haven't convinced me yet" position, or more accurately the "your evidence is not persuasive" position. That would be ok if you offered some unambiguous criteria for what you consider would be persuasive evidence on Foxfyre's topic. Failure to do that puts your argument in what I call the timid category.

You on the otherhand with regard to me, have stated the proposition:
Quote:
Ican, that's a load of what's coming out of the backside of those pigs.

Please be more specific about what "that's" refers to, and then provide some evidence to support your proposition. Factual evidence and/or logic will serve adequately as some evidence.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:39 am
Quote:
Factual evidence and/or logic will serve adequately as some evidence.

which would amount to an anomaly for this thread going all the way back to the first post.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:45 am
Also as clarification here, could someone show me where it is mandated that this is a 'debate forum'? While I think it is fine for some to engage in formal debate, is that a requirement to post here? I know it is a real stretch for some to be able to clearly state an opinion and support that opinion with logic and reason, but is there no room for that here? I personally much prefer to discuss issues or points of view using both outside substantiation and logic and reason. Not only are long, tedious cut and paste posts boring to me, but I simply don't read most of them unless the member explains clearly why I should. I do generally read an opinion expressed by another member and, if it is accompanied by reasonable logic, I respect it even if I disagree with it. Apparently some think that is inappropriate in this forum.

Clarification here please.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:47 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Conversely Icon, if ONE of those pigs should fly it would not conclusively prove that all pigs can fly, but it would prove that it is possible for a pig to fly.

Excellent! I like the way you reason! The next scientific pursuit of knowledge would then be to determine what a pig needs to fly, or what prevents some pigs from flying. But first, onward to the cargo planes --START ENGINES! Laughing

By the way, if you encounter something on which you think we disagree, please bring that up. I'd enjoy debating you.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:49 am
ok I'll take a stab at it, in your original post foxy, I responed that there was no evidence presented in support of your posted opinion, you came back with a defence arguing that there was indeed, factual evidence for your posted opinion piece and when I challanged that, you went of a tear of non-ducmentaion of your posted opinion piece. You can post all the opinion you want (I certainly do) but don't do it under the guise of documented evidence that you have done so.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:51 am
Ican writes
Quote:
By the way, if you encounter something on which you think we disagree, please bring that up. I'd enjoy debating you.


LOL, deal. Though that may be a tough assignment as I generally think you make an excellent case, frequently using logic and reason, for the opinions you express.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:59 am
mesquite wrote:
http://www.uselesscreations.com/pigs/screen4.jpg
Shocked Hay! That's it then! Change the DNA of pigs so they grow wings and who knows what might happen. Shux, if they can flywith wings in cartoon air, why not real air? Surprised
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 12:03 pm
The documented 'evidence' my dear Dys, was the scientific studies referenced in the post and was also partially based on the credentials and reputation of the writer expressing a conclusion. Now then, you can honorably say that the 'evidence' does not PROVE a liberal bias on college campuses. I have not said, I don't believe, that it did, and if I did say that it was unintentional and an error.

There were several subsequent posts presented by me and others citing specific scientifically conducted studies re the ideology of campus professors. These all relate back to the original conclusion expressed by the writer that there is a problem. I really hoped we could debate that honorably without making it an issue of 'who has proved what'.

There are some, nowever, who prefer arrogance, being condescending, one-upmanship, and/or insults rather than contributing to the discussion. I simply write those off as those who feel threatened by the subject. Ican is right that I have presented some evidence. I believe, based on what I've read and what I've seen, there is a strong liberal bias on most, if not all, public university campuses.

I have asked for those of you who disagree to show me where I'm wrong. Instead, most who disagree with me want to show how I haven't proved I'm right. That I haven't proved I'm right I haven't disputed. But, I will continue to believe the weight of evidence so far presented gives support to my opinion, whether or not it proves my opinion, and I will continue to believe that nobody has yet presented any evidence to give me reason to change my opinion.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 12:24 pm
ican711nm wrote:
You on the otherhand with regard to Foxfyre, have taken what I perceive to be the "you haven't convinced me yet" position, or more accurately the "your evidence is not persuasive" position. That would be ok if you offered some unambiguous criteria for what you consider would be persuasive evidence on Foxfyre's topic. Failure to do that puts your argument in what I call the timid category.


Ican,

I suggest you read the entire thread before you present yourself as an expert on what I have or have not offered.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1078548#1078548
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1078320#1078320
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1078157#1078157

So I have offered some evidence that things are not as bad as Foxfyre claims.

I have offered unambiguous criteria for what I would consider persuasive evidence.

Do not mistake mild or polite for timid. I will not mistake blustering for well-informed.
0 Replies
 
 

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