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Diversity of Everything but Thought

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 11:20 am
Freeduck writes
Quote:
...and doesn't the fact that most Americans don't recognize liberal bias as a problem make the argument that it isn't a widespread and systematic problem?


Well that's an interesting take on it. Could I see your data that brought you to the conclusion that most Americans don't recognize liberal bias as a problem?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 11:39 am
Quote:
Well that's an interesting take on it. Could I see your data that brought you to the conclusion that most Americans don't recognize liberal bias as a problem?


Unfortunately, as the proponent of the argument that they do, the burden of proof lies upon you to show that they do recognize liberal bias as a problem.

Why? In the absence of evidence showing that they do care, it is safe to assume that they in fact do not care. There is no reason to believe that people have a problem with anything that they do not specifically state they do.

Cycloptichorn
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 11:47 am
But, in the absence of evidence showing that they do not care, is it safe to assume that they in fact do care? And why would we make such a silly assumption?

Let's say that I were a proponent of the belief that most Americans do not recognize liberal bias as a problem. I infer you would foist upon me the burden of proving that in fact they do not. But would you be so quick to state that in the absence of evidence showing that Americans do not care, we must make the assumption that they do care? After all, there is no reason to believe that people don't care about something, unless they specifically state that they do not ....
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 11:53 am
Ticomaya wrote:
But, in the absence of evidence showing that they do not care, is it safe to assume that they in fact do care? And why would we make such a silly assumption?

Let's say that I were a proponent of the belief that most Americans do not recognize liberal bias as a problem. I infer you would foist upon me the burden of proving that in fact they do not. But would you be so quick to state that in the absence of evidence showing that Americans do not care, we must make the assumption that they do care? After all, there is no reason to believe that people don't care about something, unless they specifically state that they do not ....


Shocked
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:00 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
But, in the absence of evidence showing that they do not care, is it safe to assume that they in fact do care? And why would we make such a silly assumption?

Let's say that I were a proponent of the belief that most Americans do not recognize liberal bias as a problem. I infer you would foist upon me the burden of proving that in fact they do not. But would you be so quick to state that in the absence of evidence showing that Americans do not care, we must make the assumption that they do care? After all, there is no reason to believe that people don't care about something, unless they specifically state that they do not ....


Shocked


Of course that is merely my opinion .....
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:15 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Freeduck writes
Quote:
...and doesn't the fact that most Americans don't recognize liberal bias as a problem make the argument that it isn't a widespread and systematic problem?


Well that's an interesting take on it. Could I see your data that brought you to the conclusion that most Americans don't recognize liberal bias as a problem?


Sure.

Foxfyre wrote:
I think if most Americans would recognize the problem and push for a remedy, we could within a very few years restore academic excellence to our public schools and regain our bragging rights. Right now, we are an academic embarassment.


Just going by what you said.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:24 pm
Wow I'm really honored to be given credit as an authority Freeduck and touche' Smile

You will no doubt agree that we can apply what most Americans believe as proof for the existance or non existance for just about all other problems too, yes?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:31 pm
Depends on what that is. If we are to believe that there are widespread and systematic problems with a system that most Americans have access to and contact with, then it might be reasonable to assume that most Americans would know about them.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:42 pm
So what if most Americans do think the U.S. education system sucks these days, but aren't really sure how it got that way or how to fix the problem? And then a whole raft of studies pinpoint excessive liberalism in education as a possible or probable cause? Would you then say it merits some additional consideration at least? That it shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand because you personally don't see a problem?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:45 pm
Quote:
And then a whole raft of studies pinpoint excessive liberalism in education as a possible or probable cause?


I'd love to see the studies that link the two; excessive liberalism in schools and the decline of our education.

I assume you have links to hard, empirical data?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:47 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
So what if most Americans do think the U.S. education system sucks these days, but aren't really sure how it got that way or how to fix the problem? And then a whole raft of studies pinpoint excessive liberalism in education as a possible or probable cause? Would you then say it merits some additional consideration at least? That it shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand because you personally don't see a problem?


Yes.

But I'd emphasize that those studies would need to be independent and credible. Given that, your hypothetical isn't very likely.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:47 pm
I assume you aren't going to answer Tico's question Cyclo? And I didn't make a statement but rather also posed a question.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:48 pm
Was that for Cyclop? I didn't think Tico had asked me a question.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:53 pm
It was for Cyclop FreeDuck, I edited it as you see.
And as for the independent studies you mention, I think Zogby and some of the others certainly qualify. But I have already accepted that the liberals in this thread reject all that data and concede that it is certainly your right to do so.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:54 pm
Sure, I'll answer it right now.

Quote:
But, in the absence of evidence showing that they do not care, is it safe to assume that they in fact do care? And why would we make such a silly assumption?

Let's say that I were a proponent of the belief that most Americans do not recognize liberal bias as a problem. I infer you would foist upon me the burden of proving that in fact they do not. But would you be so quick to state that in the absence of evidence showing that Americans do not care, we must make the assumption that they do care? After all, there is no reason to believe that people don't care about something, unless they specifically state that they do not ....


Let's break it down.

The base question of the whole argument is: how do you tell if there is a problem, a concern, that is held by a large portion of our society?

My contention is that in the absence of information proving that any given population does care about a given problem, the logical conclusion is that they do not.

Not caring is the baseline state that we are working from here; if you are claiming that there is a problem, and that most people agree with you, the burden lies with you to show how this is true.

For example: if you make the claim that the majority of Americans are worried about purple space aliens, it is your responsibility to prove that. The baseline state of society is that they don't have a problem with things, especially incredibly ridiculous, partisan things.

There just isn't empirical data done on negative conclusions to the same level as positive ones. I'd have a real hard time showing that there are studies with titles like 'Americans find schools balanced, liberalism OK.' But according to you, Fox, there is a 'raftload' of data showing the opposite.

Present said data or retract your statement.

Cycloptichorn


On edit
: I see that you were also asking a question, Fox, but it still doesn't hold; your argument is faulty.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:56 pm
Foxfire wrote:
Quote:
Actually there is some discussion on Capital Hill re this issue as we speak. Whether those with better resources than I have will determine a problem and decide that some sort of mandate is in order remains to be seen. It is understandable that liberal students would perceive no bias and see no problem in an excessively liberal climate that seems and feels normal and right to them. Conservative students no doubt feel the same sense of rightness on a conservative private university campus.


I hope those involved in the discussion on Capital Hill do decide to come up with a mandate. I hope they show themselves for who they really are.....it's about time. The voters of this country need to come face to face with the choices they're making.

I wonder however, if there's going to be a mandate for one conservative professor to one liberal professor in universities.......will we also have a mandate for one liberal news outlet for one conservative one? One liberal TV station, billboard, radio station for every conservative one? We'll have to talk to Mr. Powell of the FCC and see what he says about that.

And how about the students. One student from a conservative home (one who swears to remain a conservative) for each and every liberal student.

Let's see what other mandates can we come up with? How about parents? One conservative couple are given permission to have a child for one liberal couple? It's only fair.

This is the most ridiculous discussion I've read in a long time. But have at it you conservatives with the big heads........show your a$$es. Then let's have that election in two more years......the pendulum swings.......
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:58 pm
I've got it bookmarked Cyclop and will see if you hold the same view the next time I come up with something from the opposite angle. Smile
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 12:59 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
It was for Cyclop FreeDuck, I edited it as you see.
And as for the independent studies you mention, I think Zogby and some of the others certainly qualify. But I have already accepted that the liberals in this thread reject all that data and concede that it is certainly your right to do so.


If you know of studies that show a causal relationship between liberalism and poor educational quality, I'd certainly like to see them.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 01:02 pm
Quote:
It was for Cyclop FreeDuck, I edited it as you see.
And as for the independent studies you mention, I think Zogby and some of the others certainly qualify. But I have already accepted that the liberals in this thread reject all that data and concede that it is certainly your right to do so.


The Zogby study, Fox, doesn't have anything to do with your contention. Even if it DOES show that the quality of education has declined, it does not show how this is linked to growing liberalism in college.

This logical fallacy which you continue to perpetrate is known as non-correlating statistics. Until you can show the link between the two, how liberalism actively leads to less knowledge, then your premise is faulty.

Haven't you figured out that you've lost this argument yet?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 01:02 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I think if most Americans would recognize the problem and push for a remedy, we could within a very few years restore academic excellence to our public schools and regain our bragging rights. Right now, we are an academic embarassment.

What's all this nonsense about a "remedy?" Surely, Foxfyre, you're not suggesting the imposition of quotas? Or government mandates? Or the creation of a federal oversight bureaucracy? Really, your reticence to identify any particular remedy for this "problem" is, I think, intended to mask your support of a big-government solution. For shame!

But the remedy shouldn't require any government intervention at all. Conservatives always talk about the efficiency of market solutions, so why shouldn't the market provide the solution in this case? After all, colleges compete like any other businesses. And businesses that provide bad services or products should (all things being equal) be less successful than their competitors. So if a liberal bias among a college's professoriate is deemed by consumers (i.e. students) to be undesirable, they are free to go to a competitor. Students, in other words, should be tossing their Ivy League admissions letters into the wastebasket and going to Regent University or Grove City College or any of the top ten conservative colleges listed by the Young America's Foundation.

If enough students choose conservative colleges over their purportedly "liberal" rivals, then the former will prosper and the latter will either suffer, dwindle, and die or else adapt their product to be more competitive. The remedy for liberal colleges, therefore, is simple: better conservative colleges.


This makes a lot of sense. You are right conservatives are forever going on about how free market solves most problems better than another bureaucratic pork barrel program creating more problems that it is meant to solve.

I think it was just a matter of which kind of program rather than programs period if this thread of having some kind of looming remedy to fix our higher education is any indication.

I don't think many people besides extremist would give this idea much credence. I could be wrong and if this idea grows out of the fringes of the ultra conservative organizations then it would be time to worry. imo
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