Diversity of Everything but Thought

Freeduck writes:

Quote:

If you know of studies that show a causal relationship between liberalism and poor educational quality, I'd certainly like to see them.

I'm not sure how such a study could be framed. There is are massive amounts of scholarly opinions out there supporting that thesis, however, such as this one:

http://nj.npri.org/nj98/09/education.htm

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Jesus Christ, Fox!

An Opinion Piece written by the editor of the Nevada Herald is NOT a scholarly work! Do you even understand what a scholarly work is? I'll give you a hint: it has something to do with the word scientific.

Just look at the first paragraph of your link:

Quote:

ducation standards started crumbling in the 1960s. Like most changes in our tempestuous times this collapse began in popular culture and quickly found its way into our schools. Universities were first. Many professors embraced the calls for change counter-culture challengers were launching against practically all our traditional norms.

Those are opinions, not facts. Your piece is worth nothing in this debate; it merely confirms your own opinion, without adding any data, analysis, or actual substance to the discussion.

Please stop before this gets worse.

Cycloptichorn

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Foxfyre wrote:

Freeduck writes:

Quote:
If you know of studies that show a causal relationship between liberalism and poor educational quality, I'd certainly like to see them.

I'm not sure how such a study could be framed. There is are massive amounts of scholarly opinions out there supporting that thesis, however, such as this one:

http://nj.npri.org/nj98/09/education.htm

...like I said...

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I think I can break Foxfyre's argument down like this:

1. Fox believes that a liberal bias in education is the root cause of a decline in the effectiveness of the higher education system.
2. She has the opinions of a number of other folks who agree with her.
3. Anyone who doesn't agree is a fool who refuses to see reason.

And she will re-post the same opinion pieces over and over until everyone understands this!

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But then again Freeduck, what do you have to go on but reasoned opinion on this issue? And how can you be so sure that your opinion is right and others' are wrong? I mean I am not finding ANY data or scholarly opinion or anything else that suggests education in the U.S. is just hunky dory or that liberalism is good for education or even defending it. You find some pieces that argue it is like Cyclop does by attacking the other side or being insulting, but they give no rationale for why they are right, only that they think the other side is evil.

How many learned people have to express a thoughtful, well-reasoned opinion before it is taken seriously, or can opinion ever be a valid basis to assist in arriving at a conclusion?

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And so sorry I'm not measuring up to your standard Drewdad. Could you be so kind as to list the exact standard you expect of people here? I obviously am missing the mark.

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Foxfyre wrote:

...give no rationale for why they are right, only that they think the other side is evil.

How many learned people have to express a thoughtful, well-reasoned opinion before it is taken seriously, or can opinion ever be a valid basis to assist in arriving at a conclusion?

Fox, speaking for myself:

1. I have yet to see anyone call you evil.
2. I think we disagree on what constitutes "thoughtful" and "well-reasoned."

Let me clarify my position on this: I believe you have not proven your thesis. Please note I do not say that this makes you wrong; it merely means that you will not change my mind until I see some more data. I think we shall have to agree to disagree until more information becomes available on the subject.

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Fox, I'd give the opinion and the studies more credence if they were from independent sources. Unfortunately, it seems this is a campaign being waged by the right, and they are manufacturing evidence to bolster their cases.

My opinion is that there is not a problem in higher education that needs to be remedied by any sort of government action. There is a built in remedy in the free market, as joefromchicago explained elegantly. My opinion is bolstered by the fact that nobody but far-righters even cares about liberal bias, and the fact that they have to commission their own studies to bolster their opinions and that, even then, their studies don't really support their opinions at all. (ex: more unaffilliated professors than either Democrat or Republican)

If you want to hunt liberals, I suggest you look at primary public education. You might find more support.

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...and ditto what DrewDad said.

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By "independant", do you mean liberal?

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Drewdad, I have not once on A2K (or on any other message board) asked or insisted that any person agree with me, ever, except in friendly banter for fun. I foolishly thought a debate forum was for a vigorous exchange of ideas, information, and opinion. Your previous post insultingly inferred that I think people a fool if they do not agree with me. Is that what you think of people who do not agree with you?

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McGentrix wrote:

By "independant", do you mean liberal?

Do I need to banish you to the Coming out of the Closet thread?

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FreeDuck wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
By "independant", do you mean liberal?

Do I need to banish you to the Coming out of the Closet thread?

That seems to me to be what you mean by what you said.

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I'm disappointed in you, McG.

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I've posted articles, Foxfyre has posted articles, yet none of them seem to be good enough, nor independant enough for you. I believe that it doesn't matter the source, it's the information contained within that matters.

Argue the material instead of the source.

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Foxfyre wrote:

And so sorry I'm not measuring up to your standard Drewdad. Could you be so kind as to list the exact standard you expect of people here? I obviously am missing the mark.

I have stated my standards on pages 34 and 37 of this thread.

Let me tell you how I'm reading your argument. I'll tell you the problems I have with it and you tell me where I'm wrong. Smile

1. There are significantly more liberal professors than conservative professors.
2. You assert that there is a serious flaw with higher education.
3. You further assert that 1 is the cause of 2, with no causative mechanism shown.

My problem is that I disagree with 2, and I think you need to flesh out 3 a little bit.

I also think there is a world of difference between "wrong" and "not proven." Your thesis, in my mind, is "not proven." That being said, we may have to agree to disagree until more data is available.

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I'm arguing both, McG, and I've specifically argued the studies discussed in the articles you posted. All of the articles both of you have posted concern the same studies commissioned by the same group of people. And I've argued their flaws. The source becomes suspicious when the study is inferior on its face yet is getting lots of media time from the usual suspects.

Independent means exactly what it means.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Drewdad, I have not once on A2K (or on any other message board) asked or insisted that any person agree with me, ever, except in friendly banter for fun. I foolishly thought a debate forum was for a vigorous exchange of ideas, information, and opinion. Your previous post insultingly inferred that I think people a fool if they do not agree with me. Is that what you think of people who do not agree with you?

I'm sorry for coming off as insulting.

My posts that use the tone "earnest" did not seem to work.

My post that aimed for the tone "banter" apparently fell short of the mark.

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Apology accepted Drewdad and thank you.

All any of us have in subjective matters is opinion and the correlation between liberalism and poor education is purely subjective. Nobody has suggested otherwise.

I fully accept that you, Freeduck and others do not agree with either the opinion or hard evidence presented by McG, JW, myself and probably others. I've lost track of who all has joined in the fray. I do believe you are so convinced of the rightness of your opinion that you would not be easily convinced at this point. But then neither would I because I have done so much looking for material plus my own anecdotal experience that supports every bit of it. I don't agree that all the data, studies, opinion etc. that has been presented comes right out of the conservative manifesto. You and Freeduck apparently do.

So if we're at an impasse and nobody is enjoying the discussion, then we shake hands and move on or take a new tact with something else. I've learned a lot since this thread started and will probably keep on researching or see if I can get some real internet sleuths I know interested so they'll go find some more stuff.

Anyhow I need to get some work done here..

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Hold up. We (I wasn't named, but I'm generally in the FreeDuck group) certainly do accept hard evidence presented by McG, JW, yourself, and some others.

If it's actually hard evidence.

Not if it is opinion presented as hard evidence, or soft evidence such as a study commissioned by an individual or institution with an agenda that dovetails with the findings.

But hard evidence, yes, of course that's accepted -- but you have already indicated that you find the extra seconds involved in Googling too difficult/ exhausting/ time consuming. (Truly, I spend more time correcting typos in my posts than it takes to Google most of this stuff...)

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