Diversity of Everything but Thought

nimh wrote:

JustWonders wrote:
DTOM - If your college-student son was in an engineering course being taught by a Republican professor and was subjected to 45 minute rants on the evils of the Democrats on a daily basis, would you be receptive to writing a large check when that school's fund-raiser called?

And the evidence of this occurring on a systematic scale is where in this thread?

You know what, Nimh? I've no doubts I could spend my time looking up and bringing hundreds (yes, that many) of examples of this type (or similar) bias going on all over this country.

Will I? No.

You, my friend, are one of the more intelligent posters on this forum. If you choose to buy into the prevailing opposition to Foxfyre's opening article and assert that there is NOT a problem in this area, then I will respect your opinion. I don't agree with it, but I've come to realize that nothing I (nor Foxfyre) do or say here will change anyone's mind.

So be it.

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That is encouraging JW. Last night I was working with our local news radio program running in the background and happened to hear a student call in to the Michael Savage show stating that his college....one in the bay area California...can't remember the name but it wasn't Stanford or Berkeley....anyhow one of them was going to use Savage's book "The Enemy Within" as a textbook. It came via student protests that they were overwhelmed with required reading of Bush-bashing books and so the faculty relented to allow Savage's book which is definitely an opposite point of view, though Savage is no fan of George Bush.
His book, however, is a blanket condemnation of American modern liberalism.

So maybe you're right and the some fresh new winds are indeed blowing.

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I think Nimh has uncharacteristically cherry picked his points here and not placed them within the larger context of the argument for the conservative side.

I have stated that I believe Williams to be an excellent researcher and not given to knee jerk opinion and Nimh does not agree with that which is fine. I believe the facts as presented by Williams apart from his analysis of them and long experience are on my side, but I have not presented these as facts but have only asserted that I agree with his analysis that I trust is based on the facts as he presented them. I don't have to prove either my opinion or Williams' opinion for that matter.

Nimh and amost everybody else who takes exception with Williams' and the starting piece for this thread have declined requests that they disprove the data presented with data of their own. Cyclop did attempt to do that, I'll give him that, but his research was too thin and faulty to be useful.

As circular arguments are tedious and unproductive, following JW's graceful exit, stage right.

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So ends act 3. Any doubt there will be an act 4?

Cycloptichorn

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Foxfyre, you don't have to prove your opinion, or anyone else's. However, if you want people to consider your opinions/take you seriously in a discussion/debate, you do need to bring in facts. We all learned this basic principle in grade school.

If you have facts, present them. Otherwise, simply indicate that you are offering an opinion that agrees with your own. That type of honesty is valued, and generally respected.

The burden of proof here was on you. The proof of negative proof was not on anyone else. That someone felt generous enough to debate you in spite of your disinclination to bring in proof is simply an indication of their level of courtesy.

There is a reason people generally appreciate a debate/discussion with timber - he is usually quite clear in identifying opinions he presents vs facts he presents.

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I presented facts ehBeth that you and some others have apparently decided not to consider. I posted Williams artcile and referred to its addendum specifically for the specific facts cited in the article. Now you can say those don't count as facts and I definitely dont care. They count to me. And if you want different facts, then please go find your own.

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four

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JustWonders wrote:

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
whether or not there is liberal bias in the education system doesn't really matter, jw. if conservatives believe there is, it is up to them to turn out more conservative teachers and professors etc., than they have been.

DTOM - If your college-student son was in an engineering course being taught by a Republican professor and was subjected to 45 minute rants on the evils of the Democrats on a daily basis, would you be receptive to writing a large check when that school's fund-raiser called?

It's not about a professor's political persuasion or whether more Democrats/Republicans or liberals/conservatives are teaching. Any good teacher will teach the SUBJECT. You would expect your tuition dollars going to a public college or university to yield exposure to more than just the bias the professor brings to class.

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frankly, the idea of a liberally biased ed system baffles me. when i was in school it was the liberal teachers that were absolutely in the minority. and usually found only in the arts or humanities or whatever. but that was a long time ago ( ).

Again, a professor's political bias should not enter into their teaching agenda. If you try hard enough, you can find plenty of examples of students being subjected to an instructor's bias for which there is absolutely no rational explanation.

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i will say that in my coworkers over the last 15 years, the young people that grew up during the reagan administration are more inclined to go for the cash type jobs than the essential, yet lower paying jobs like educator.

don't know if it's due to reagan's influenece or the basic shallowness of the '80s.

I know of at least one case of a conservative professor being blackballed for tenure due to his political views. None of my friends opted for teaching careers, but I don't consider them shallow. Again, DTOM, it's not about how many liberals are working in academia, but rather the bias they bring to their chosen profession.

ahhhhhh... there's fun in the air !

i want to come back to this with you j.w.! i have additional thoughts, none of which is that either you or your friends are shallow. it was the pop culture and it's effects that i found shallow.

but, for now, we are going to a xmas party at a friends house in the infamous hollywood hills. "arrhhh, matey, there be liberals thar"!! :wink:

if any good tidbits come up, i'll share them with you !

Laughing

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JustWonders wrote:

If you choose to buy into the prevailing opposition to Foxfyre's opening article and assert that there is NOT a problem in this area, then I will respect your opinion. I don't agree with it, but I've come to realize that nothing I (nor Foxfyre) do or say here will change anyone's mind.

So be it.

Just thought that maybe it's time for someone to clarify the prevailing opposition to Foxfyre's opening article and argument. Most here have acknowledged that Democrats outnumber Republicans in most American universities' faculty. Most have acknowledged that there would be a perceived bias in the social sciences. I googled several variations of 'liberal bias engineering science' and came up with nada.

The opposition comes to the statement that the bias prevents adequate education. What's missing is a demonstration of how this perceived bias actually negatively effects students, especially conservative ones, other than forcing them to hear a point of view other than the one they were brought up listening to. And that's where the argument falls short.

I don't even need to get into a debate about the flimsiness of the evidence or the leaps in logic, because even if it were all perfectly demonstrated, it means next to nothing to anyone other than those who take every opportunity to paint conservatism as some poor unfairly disadvantaged ideology. Tell me, when you get the media and the universities, what will you do with your time? Sit around thinking of designs for the armbands you're going to make liberals wear so that God-fearing Americans can identify and avoid them? :wink: I sincerely hope that what you guys are going for actually IS objectivity and not just indoctrination with an ideology that is acceptable to you.

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My only question to you Freeduck is how do you conclude that it cannot be cognizantly reasoned that an excessive ratio of Democrats/liberals to conservatives would not skew the opportunities for students to be exposed to a healthy dose of all points of view? Would you be so quick to dismiss the data presented as irrelevant if the vast majority of faculty on public campuses were vastly conservative? Before you answer please read again on many threads the contempt most A2K liberals have for conservative private institutions of higher learning with the specific or implied implication that such institutions do not provide real eduation in anything other than propaganda.

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Foxfyre wrote:

My only question to you Freeduck is how do you conclude that it cannot be cognizntly reasoned that an excessive ratio of Democrats/liberals to conservatives would not skew the opportunities for students to be exposed to a healthy dose of all points of view?

First, that's not my conclusion. I have not concluded that it cannot be reasoned, only that it hasn't been reasoned in this thread. Second, unless a student is studying politics, or going to college for the express purpose of determining their own political persuasion, it is not the job of universities and colleges to expose students to any points of view, much less all. Hey, where's the anarchist point of view? Third, if you were to find that there were more Democrats who worked in the Healthcare Industry than Republicans, would this mean anything? How about the Defense industry? Transportation? The truth of the matter is that, although you can show that there are some professors who let their political bias into their classroom, by and large it doesn't come up. This is especially true for subjects other than the social sciences. You can draw your own conclusion there and I probably would not argue with it.

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Would you be so quick to dismiss the data presented as irrelevant if the vast majority of faculty on public campuses were vastly conservative? Before you answer please read again on many threads the contempt most A2K liberals have for conservative private institutions of higher learning with the specific or implied implication that such institutions do not provide real eduation in anything other than propaganda.

And again. It's not the data I'm dismissing, it's the conclusion. But I would not send my children to an institution that was known for leaning very heavily in one direction or the other unless there was a specific program there that made it worth it. In higher education there is what is desired in all other: school choice.

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Freeduck writes

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And again. It's not the data I'm dismissing, it's the conclusion. But I would not send my children to an institution that was known for leaning very heavily in one direction or the other unless there was a specific program there that made it worth it. In higher education there is what is desired in all other: school choice.

Bingo!!! Give that man a prize! I agree, and posted earlier in this thread, I think a university should have no tilt at all. Students should be schooled in the art of critical reasoning and have opportunity to be exposed to all points of view. (The political ideology of the faculty would make no difference at all in that case.) And if a university does tilt too far in any ideological direction, I don't want to attend and don't want my children to attend that university.

The thesis however, is that it has become excessively difficult for students to find public universities that do not tilt excessively left and where liberal ideology is not being excessively pushed to the exclusion of conservative thought. Now the essays posted support that thesis as does some anecdotal evidence and some harder evidence presented here by JW and myself. So far nobody has come with with anything to refute that there appears to be a problem other than they don't believe there is one.

You can certainly say you think we haven't presented any data to support our take on it though I think you would have to ignore a whole lot to say that. I can certainly say that so far nobody has produced any data of any kind to refute it.

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Foxfyre wrote:

The thesis however, is that it has become excessively difficult for students to find public universities that do not tilt excessively left and where liberal ideology is not being excessively pushed. Now the essays posted support that thesis as does some anecdotal evidence and some harder evidence presented here by JW and myself. So far nobody has come with with anything to refute that there appears to be a problem other than they don't believe there is one..

Well, this is certainly a different thesis than what we've been discussing. But let's just say that it is the thesis put forth in the op-ed. Then the evidence falls even shorter. In order to disprove that thesis we only need to show examples of universities that do not excessively push liberal ideology. I seem to have just seen a short list of these either earlier in the thread or in an article posted in this thread. I'll try to find that.

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You can certainly say you think we haven't presented any data to support our take on it though I think you would have to ignore a whole lot to say that. I can certainly say that so far nobody has produced any data of any kind to refute it.

And again. Looking for evidence to prove a negative...

What I have said, and will continue to say, is that your data doesn't support your conclusions. In fact, since I've said it more than once and you still insist that I'm saying you haven't provided data, and even though I hate using all caps, THE DATA DOESN'T SUPPORT YOUR CONCLUSIONS. Just so you don't forget what it is that I'm actually saying.

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Since I was googling and came upon a nice piece of evidence I thought we all might enjoy, I will present it.

Here is the study which I believe is being cited by many an opinion.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Content/read.asp?ID=55

Their conclusion agrees with yours and those of the opeds. However, their data:

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Total Schools Surveyed: 32

Total Democrats: 1397

Total Republicans: 134

Total Unaffiliated: 1891 [2]

Total TM [3]: 790

Total Miscellaneous: 43

.....

[2] This category includes both voters who were not affiliated with a party, and those whose records we could not find within the town, county or state voter list.

[3] This category includes voters for whom "too many" results were returned, i.e. multiple results for the same name.

does not. According to this study there are more unaffilliateds than Democrats and Republicans combined. What this study really says, and what has been argued in this thread, is that there aren't very many Republicans in higher education. It doesn't really say anything else. So maybe you could start a movement within your local Republican party to convince young republicans to become teachers.

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Alas, the problem persists however, that the climate on many public university campuses is so inhospitable to conservative and/or Republican students, and the Education Dept. is one area in which the situation is most insidious, that students are either driven to other pursuits or if they do get hired as a professor, the climate is too hostile for them to say. Do I have data to prove this? Not yet. I'm working on it. The anecdotal reports from my friends and relatives who have been there support this analysis however.

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Foxfire,

After you get the goods on the education departments in all universities, what will you do with it? What should be done? Talk is cheap.

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Actually there is some discussion on Capital Hill re this issue as we speak. Whether those with better resources than I have will determine a problem and decide that some sort of mandate is in order remains to be seen. It is understandable that liberal students would perceive no bias and see no problem in an excessively liberal climate that seems and feels normal and right to them. Conservative students no doubt feel the same sense of rightness on a conservative private university campus.

The thesis is whether complete education is possible on an excessively liberal publically funded institution of higher learner if such do in fact exist. So far on this thread the liberals see no problem and accept none of the data or opinion presented to support the possibility of a problem. The conservatives do. And I personally think things interesting to people are worthy of discussion no matter how 'cheap' that discussion might be.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Actually there is some discussion on Capital Hill re this issue as we speak. Whether those with better resources than I have will determine a problem and decide that some sort of mandate is in order remains to be seen. It is understandable that liberal students would perceive no bias and see no problem in an excessively liberal climate that seems and feels normal and right to them. Conservative students no doubt feel the same sense of rightness on a conservative private university campus.

The thesis is whether complete education is possible on an excessively liberal publically funded institution of higher learner if such do in fact exist. So far on this thread the liberals see no problem and accept none of the data or opinion presented to support the possibility of a problem. The conservatives do. And I personally think things interesting to people are worthy of discussion no matter how 'cheap' that discussion might be.

but i thought you were one of the people that said that the federal government should stay out of education.

personally i find it funny that conservatives are so concerned about a liberal bias in education.

the conservatives had no problem with the army coming into my school and administering a mandatory "armed forces battery test" when i was in the 9th grade.

they had no problem with teachers extoling the virtues of the "war on communism" in vietnam, urging me to think about joining up.

the conservatives had no problem with a male teacher tossing me up against a locker for my long hair and wearing a black armband on moratorium day. yes, jived on and on about both...

the conservatives had no problem with their like minded education administrators chasing myself and other staffers of a 4 school collective underground newspaper around and threatening us with expulsion for expressing our views about the the condition of our nation.

the conservatives had no problem with a teacher grabbing a binder, to which i had affixed a magazine ad for a popular "underground" group's new album, and proclaiming to the whole class; "what kind of sick eyes could envision this??? and then slamming it down on my desk. that one was kind of funny. my mother wound up being his boss. in fact, she hated my binder even more than he did ( she was, and still is an uber-conservative ), but, he didn't know that. if i'd found it worth my time to mess with him, i could have had some fun... but i'm not built that way.

the conservatives had no problem with insisting that, each and every morning, i be led in "the lord's prayer" or that i "pledge allegiance" to their god. they never asked if he was my god, by the way...

and here's the one that i really love...

the conservatives in my neighborhood had absolutely no problem at all when my scout troop's new scoutmaster rechristianed our bunch, "the green beret troop". and we had to wear green berets. yep... our new "look at the the wonders of nature, tie a square knot, don't play with tar" guru, fresh from two tours of vietnam was gonna "get us ready for the army". god was in, gays were out; and all was right with the world.
i mention this because, while we normally met in church, for a while we held meetings in the school while the church was finally rigged up with air conditioning...

strangely, i came through all of this conservative bias pretty much in tact and went on to have a fairly decent life.

without filing a single lawsuit...

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DTOM writes

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but i thought you were one of the people that said that the federal government should stay out of education.

For the most part I do think the federal government should stay out of education other than for monitoring effectiveness, adherance to the law, and perhaps suggesting some general guidelines to help U.S. universities from going completely off into left field (metaphorically speaking) when compared to what other countries are doing. Currently, while the U.S. can boast at being the best at many things, education isn't one of them.
What I think the ideal is and what the reality is are two entirely separate things however. Just because I point out that something is happening, it cannot be automatically assumed that I either condone it or condemn it.

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personally i find it funny that conservatives are so concerned about a liberal bias in education.

You do? Even after the tirade about your perception of conservative excesses you detail below?

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the conservatives had no problem with the army coming into my school and administering a mandatory "armed forces battery test" when i was in the 9th grade.

Please explain this further. I've never heard of such a thing and it doesn't sound like something typical.

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they had no problem with teachers extoling the virtues of the "war on communism" in vietnam, urging me to think about joining up.

I wasn't there. Can't comment. I personally, however, am pretty conservative on many issues and would have had a problem with that. So maybe you're making too much of a blanket condemnation here?

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the conservatives had no problem with a male teacher tossing me up against a locker for my long hair and wearing a black armband on moratorium day. yes, jived on and on about both...

You really believe conservatives condone a teacher throwing a student up against a locker because of his ideology?

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the conservatives had no problem with their like minded education administrators chasing myself and other staffers of a 4 school collective underground newspaper around and threatening us with expulsion for expressing our views about the the condition of our nation.

I ran up against this myself running underground newspapers in both highschool and college. An underground newspaper that went against the policy and/or temperament of the institutions was not permitted then either. Had nothing to do with ideology - it had everything to do with policy and they figured on their property and in their facilities, etc., they had the right to set the rules. So we just moved our operation off campus and all was well.

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the conservatives had no problem with a teacher grabbing a binder, to which i had affixed a magazine ad for a popular "underground" group's new album, and proclaiming to the whole class; "what kind of sick eyes could envision this??? and then slamming it down on my desk. that one was kind of funny. my mother wound up being his boss. in fact, she hated my binder even more than he did ( she was, and still is an uber-conservative ), but, he didn't know that. if i'd found it worth my time to mess with him, i could have had some fun... but i'm not built that way.

How many conservatives did you poll for an opinion about this actually?

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the conservatives had no problem with insisting that, each and every morning, i be led in "the lord's prayer" or that i "pledge allegiance" to their god. they never asked if he was my god, by the way...

Were you in a Catholic or other religious-based school? For public school I would object to the Lord's Prayer being recited but not to the pledge of allegiance. In a religious school absolutely A-okay however.

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and here's the one that i really love...

the conservatives in my neighborhood had absolutely no problem at all when my scout troop's new scoutmaster rechristianed our bunch, "the green beret troop". and we had to wear green berets. yep... our new "look at the the wonders of nature, tie a square knot, don't play with tar" guru, fresh from two tours of vietnam was gonna "get us ready for the army". god was in, gays were out; and all was right with the world.
i mention this because, while we normally met in church, for a while we held meetings in the school while the church was finally rigged up with air conditioning...

Again I wasn't there, but you again polled a lot of conservatives on their opinions about this did you? And it was mandatory that you belonged to a scout troop that you found so offensive?

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strangely, i came through all of this conservative bias pretty much in tact and went on to have a fairly decent life.

without filing a single lawsuit...

I can definately admire you for thinking not filing lawsuits about this stuff is commendable which it is.

And while I don't see how any of this applies in any way to the thesis in this thread, would you say these experiences were a positive or a negative to you? Seriously DTOM, I know you're making a point and I don't really think you're condemning all conservatives and conservatism here. But would you say that because you had to endure what you perceived to be a conservative bias as a youngster, that college students now should be subjected to an excessively biased public school environment now whether liberal or conservative?

And on a personal note, I'm a little disappointed. As one of our A2K somewhat left of center members that I most admire, I didn't think you'd fall into the trap of the "See? We're not as bad as you are" mentality here.

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Foxfyre wrote:

DTOM writes

Quote:
but i thought you were one of the people that said that the federal government should stay out of education.

For the most part I do think the federal government should stay out of education other than for monitoring effectiveness, adherance to the law, and perhaps suggesting some general guidelines to help U.S. universities from going completely off into left field (metaphorically speaking) when compared to what other countries are doing. Currently, while the U.S. can boast at being the best at many things, education isn't one of them.
What I think the ideal is and what the reality is are two entirely separate things however. Just because I point out that something is happening, it cannot be automatically assumed that I either condone it or condemn it.

but fox, it's the "except for(s)" that derail the whole thing. education is education. government is government. two different things. and like you, i think that government needs to butt out. you (not you, the person) can't say "government out of edu, then say " except for prayer and conservative (or liberal influence), and "proper" sex education.

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personally i find it funny that conservatives are so concerned about a liberal bias in education.

You do? Even after the tirade about your perception of conservative excesses you detail below?

i have a warped sense of humor ?

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the conservatives had no problem with the army coming into my school and administering a mandatory "armed forces battery test" when i was in the 9th grade.

Please explain this further. I've never heard of such a thing and it doesn't sound like something typical.

i guess it was typical then. it least it was for us. we were told that the army was coming in to test male students. we were not asked, we were told, that we would be taking the test. not an academic test, but an army test for possible placement. for instance, i was rated as being "mechanically inclined". you must be joking, i thought. still can't figure out which end of a wrench to hold.

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they had no problem with teachers extoling the virtues of the "war on communism" in vietnam, urging me to think about joining up.

I wasn't there. Can't comment. I personally, however, am pretty conservative on many issues and would have had a problem with that. So maybe you're making too much of a blanket condemnation here?

no. and not even making a condemnation. just making a point. it was common. at the time, the pendulum was in the conservative position. such were the times. i didn't buy what they were sellin' and went on my way. so the point is that conservative studuents should do the same if they encounter a "liberal" teacher that spouts what they don't buy into.
simple, easy and lawyers specializing in canned oppression lose out on their green fees...

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the conservatives had no problem with a male teacher tossing me up against a locker for my long hair and wearing a black armband on moratorium day. yes, jived on and on about both...

You really believe conservatives condone a teacher throwing a student up against a locker because of his ideology?

when i brought it up, nothing happened. look, foxy, at the time it was "assumed" that "the long hair freak must have done something wrong". same thing at home. my conservative parents, seeing that i was in a rock band, smoked a little weed and drank beer; knew that i must, just must, be the spawn of satan. "how come you never hang out with the kids in our nice new, upscale neighborhood??". they figured out, after i moved out at 18, and the focus was no longer on me, that the upscale neighbor kids were into serious dope and larceny. they were all getting picked up all of the time for stuff. bunch of rich brats. i didn't need that crap.

so yes, i was "victimized" by conservative bias. from all sides. so what ? made me stronger in my self.

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the conservatives had no problem with their like minded education administrators chasing myself and other staffers of a 4 school collective underground newspaper around and threatening us with expulsion for expressing our views about the the condition of our nation.

I ran up against this myself running underground newspapers in both highschool and college. An underground newspaper that went against the policy and/or temperament of the institutions was not permitted then either. Had nothing to do with ideology - it had everything to do with policy and they figured on their property and in their facilities, etc., they had the right to set the rules. So we just moved our operation off campus and all was well.

well then, why are we hearing about a conservative kid getting rousted for breaking the same rules, and bringinging in the "fire" lawyers for advice?

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the conservatives had no problem with a teacher grabbing a binder, to which i had affixed a magazine ad for a popular "underground" group's new album, and proclaiming to the whole class; "what kind of sick eyes could envision this??? and then slamming it down on my desk. that one was kind of funny. my mother wound up being his boss. in fact, she hated my binder even more than he did ( she was, and still is an uber-conservative ), but, he didn't know that. if i'd found it worth my time to mess with him, i could have had some fun... but i'm not built that way.

How many conservatives did you poll for an opinion about this actually?

how many "of anybody" does it take to figure out that this is inappropriate behavior from an educator. i forgot to mention his daily references to his religion. he was also what we called down home, a "stump jumper". which is a preacher that doesn't really ever seem to have church.

everything else aside, he really was a quite tiring individual to start with.

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the conservatives had no problem with insisting that, each and every morning, i be led in "the lord's prayer" or that i "pledge allegiance" to their god. they never asked if he was my god, by the way...

Were you in a Catholic or other religious-based school? For public school I would object to the Lord's Prayer being recited but not to the pledge of allegiance. In a religious school absolutely A-okay however.

naw, it was public school. but at the time, and in the bible belt, it was kind of hard to tell the difference

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and here's the one that i really love...

the conservatives in my neighborhood had absolutely no problem at all when my scout troop's new scoutmaster rechristianed our bunch, "the green beret troop". and we had to wear green berets. yep... our new "look at the the wonders of nature, tie a square knot, don't play with tar" guru, fresh from two tours of vietnam was gonna "get us ready for the army". god was in, gays were out; and all was right with the world.
i mention this because, while we normally met in church, for a while we held meetings in the school while the church was finally rigged up with air conditioning...

Again I wasn't there, but you again polled a lot of conservatives on their opinions about this did you? And it was mandatory that you belonged to a scout troop that you found so offensive?

oh, on this one there was a hearty round of applause all around. and i exited scouting soon after this guy showed up. honestly, standing at attention for thirty minutes or so was not why i joined the boy scouts.

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strangely, i came through all of this conservative bias pretty much in tact and went on to have a fairly decent life.

without filing a single lawsuit...

I can definately admire you for thinking not filing lawsuits about this stuff is commendable which it is.

why? it never occured to me do so. in my mind, lawsuits were for something serious. like a guy hopping over the backyard fence in a drunken freakout and crackin' a slugger over your head. somebody saying something you didn't want to hear or giving you grief didn't even register in that way to me.

And while I don't see how any of this applies in any way to the thesis in this thread, would you say these experiences were a positive or a negative to you? Seriously DTOM, I know you're making a point and I don't really think you're condemning all conservatives and conservatism here. But would you say that because you had to endure what you perceived to be a conservative bias as a youngster, that college students now should be subjected to an excessively biased public school environment now whether liberal or conservative?

below

And on a personal note, I'm a little disappointed. As one of our A2K somewhat left of center members that I most admire, I didn't think you'd fall into the trap of the "See? We're not as bad as you are" mentality here.

sorry foxy, don't mean to. it's not that i think liberal bias is better than conservative bias. not at all. i think that political yip yap should be confined to relative studies; poli-sci, history, economics. it's just that, for me, there seems to be a convenient selective memory attitude that until the "alleged"( i say that because i haven't sat in a classroom in more years than i care to remember) liberal bias permeated the education landscape, there was no political bias of any kind from teachers and i know that to be false.

it's very late, i'm post dinner party and really very tired. hope this makes sense.

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