Diversity of Everything but Thought

Foxfyre wrote:

Feels like a lot Nimh.

What does? My one post here?

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But on my way out I did find this re that course in canine studies:
http://www.newsobserver.com/front/story/1864412p-8196716c.html

Seems like it isn't exactly as Cyclop represented it, but was rather a course devoted to 'the dog represented in various media settings'. Now perhaps that grabs you as the way a college student should spend a chunk of his/her term, but I rather side with Williams on that one--I would like to see meatier course content.

Well, you're free to think that a course isn't "serious" enough - but how does that make it into an example of how the academia are ideologically slanted, too liberal?

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OK, I read your link. This is what it says about that course:

"In the class, Kuzniar had her Germanic language students study the representation of the dog in art, film and literature."

"I feel it's such an incredible misrepresentation of what we're doing in the classroom," [the teacher] said. "We're reading Virginia Woolf. We're reading Franz Kafka."

What's the scandal here? Period?

I suspect that a course focusing on "the representation of the dog in art, film and literature" can actually be a practical way to use a neutral subject for an analytic exercise on important materials.

Unlike the high school of old, after all, university doesnt primarily/merely focus on injecting students with knowledge - but on teaching them how to go about acquiring knowledge. How to find sources and analyse them. Better to teach a man to fish than give him a fish, and all that.

Analysis of art, film and literature is important; students need to be instructed in how to go about it; what sample topic you take for it is relatively irrelevant. Just so long they learn to go about it the right way.

In fact, taking a neutral, trivial subject might even be advantageous, if only to avoid those accusations of inserting ideologized content into the course ...

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Not your one post, Nimh. One post added to several others over time.

You complimented Cyclop via

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Also, good job on deconstructing the "frivolous" charge re: those university courses, Cyclo.

But nothing to say that he had it wrong on at least one? I would guess we could find out he might be wrong on the others as well? And therefore, a summary dismissal of Williams' analysis just might not be well-reasoned? Or accurate?

And if the courses cited by Williams, coupled with all the other data he included in that essay and the sister essay he followed it with, just maybe he does have it right?

This started out as a reasoned discussion, apart from Cyclop's unsubstantiated dismissals of the thesis--dismissals that are still unsubstantiated by the way--and could yield some good things if it was kept that way.

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I suppose a liberal would think the course material was just fine, which would be the problem conservatives would have with perceived liberal-bias on campus in the first place.

My college major was journalism and included a lot of multi-media stuff. I can't imagine a course based on the use of dogs in media, no matter what the students are reading. There is always room for differences of opinion about that, but I can't fault conservatives from thinking this is a waste of public funds and students' time when real education should be taking place. I'm still researching the I like Ike thing, but already am finding that isn't quite as Cyclop represented it either and the verdict is still out on whether Williams had it right.

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I think a couple of people who posted on this thread missed the whole point of it to begin with, but that's more often the case than not and to be expected.

I'm really surprised, though, that a couple of posters (whom I'd heretofore thought to be more openminded and intelligent) have the temerity, given the overwhelming evidence, to promote the idea that there is no liberal bias on US college campuses today.

So be it. The winds of change are blowing as we speak.

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Good winds JW? Please tell me they are good winds.

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Foxfyre wrote:

You complimented Cyclop via

Quote:
Also, good job on deconstructing the "frivolous" charge re: those university courses, Cyclo.

But nothing to say that he had it wrong on at least one?

I suspect he Googled up the wrong course, but I'll leave him a chance to clear that up first.

Meanwhile, you're free to prove him wrong on the other courses he looked up, of course, see for yourself if he made any other mistakes.

Foxfyre wrote:

I would guess we could find out he might be wrong on the others as well? And therefore, a summary dismissal of Williams' analysis just might not be well-reasoned? Or accurate?

Well, if you'll remember, Cyclo argued against quite a specific "analysis" by Williams. After all, this is what Williams actually wrote: "That strong campus leftist bias goes a long way to explain mindless university courses like: "Canine Cultural Studies" (University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill), [etc]."

Now, explain me if you will how this basic thesis - that the existence of the "canine culture" course we are discussing now evidences a "strong campus leftist bias" - has in any way been shown accurate, by the link you brought or otherwise?

The course turns out to not be about the "breeding" of dogs, but about how dogs are "represented in literature, film, art".

A light-weight topic? I dunno. Perhaps, but not necessarily: I can think of pretty interesting papers to write about that one. Plus, see my post above (which crossed yours), about a university course as an instrument for analytic exercise - the topic itself is irrelevant, in that respect. And if you're gonna choose any topic, "the representation of dogs" seems as devoid of ideology as any, I would say.

Which brings us to William's supposed argument: that it's evidence of a "strong leftist bias". How is this course's existence evidence of any ideological bias, pray tell? What does it have to do, period, with Williams' argument about university professors being Democratic rather than Republican by 28:1 or whatever?

Do you care to argue the specifics on this one? Because Williams notably didn't ... that's what you get, with opinion pieces.

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I didn't read it that the courses he cited were evidence of strong liberal bias. He cited hard studies for that. I took it that it is his opinion that the courses he cited are the result of strong liberal bias on campus.

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JustWonders wrote:

I think a couple of people who posted on this thread missed the whole point of it to begin with, but that's more often the case than not and to be expected.

I'm really surprised, though, that a couple of posters (whom I'd heretofore thought to be more openminded and intelligent) have the temerity, given the overwhelming evidence, to promote the idea that there is no liberal bias on US college campuses today.

So be it. The winds of change are blowing as we speak.

whether or not there is liberal bias in the education system doesn't really matter, jw. if conservatives believe there is, it is up to them to turn out more conservative teachers and professors etc., than they have been.

frankly, the idea of a liberally biased ed system baffles me. when i was in school it was the liberal teachers that were absolutely in the minority. and usually found only in the arts or humanities or whatever. but that was a long time ago ( Crying or Very sad

).

i will say that in my coworkers over the last 15 years, the young people that grew up during the reagan administration are more inclined to go for the cash type jobs than the essential, yet lower paying jobs like educator.

don't know if it's due to reagan's influenece or the basic shallowness of the '80s. Rolling Eyes

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Foxfyre wrote:

I didn't read it that the courses he cited were evidence of strong liberal bias. He cited hard studies for that. I took it that it is his opinion that the courses he cited are the result of strong liberal bias on campus.

OK, how is a course about "the representation of dogs in literature, films, art" the result of a "strong liberal bias"?

Williams claims it is - well, he calls it a "strong leftist bias" - but he doesn't actually argue why or how. (In fact, I suspect he included the titles for effect, a "laugh line" so to say, more than anything else - an opinion piece writer's prerogative.)

So it's up to you, I suppose. How do you argue that making students write a paper about the representation of dogs in the work of Franz Kafka or Virginia Woolf is the result of a campus's "strong leftist bias"?

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(Enter Foxfyre, begin act 3)

><

Google the wrong course and you're whole argument goes to hell.

The principle remains, however; it doesn't really matter if you think someone else's choices of study are frivolous or not. The 'hard data' about how badly we are teaching our students has no correlation to the amount of liberal professors whatsoever; it merely shows that, in their opinion, the quality of education has declined. There is no data as to which schools were tested; was it community college? 2-year degrees? 4-year degrees? We just don't know, as there is no methodology available. I also have problems with people using 'soon to be released' studies as evidence; a child could poke holes in that.

Also, I still have yet to hear an answer as to why liberals outnumber conservatives so much on college campuses, from anyone. I suspect that the liberal bias has more to do with the fact that conservatives aren't trying to be teachers at nearly the same rate as liberals than any inherent 'bias' by the administrators.

Hell, my alma mater, UT Austin, has the most conservative board of directors you would ever believe. Big business types, every one. Yet our profs are still a majority of liberals. Why?

Cycloptichorn

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You must have missed my earlier post where I answered that question Cyclop.

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And Nimh we can continue this circular argument but I don't find it useful. The thesis is that U.S. college campuses are tilted way to the left to the detriment of the students and a good education. I believe I know Walter Williams' research well enough that he knows pretty damn well what was in those courses before he put them in his essay. And I think he knows the Canine course and the others are what we call 'bird courses' in that they contain little substance, require little expectation from the professor, and you fly right through them.

Now I happen to agree with Williams based on my own recent experience with academia, the experience my children have had with academia--one has taught college courses herself--and the general consensus among most of my friends and relatives who are part of academia as we speak.
That is my opinion.

You may hold a different opinion and may have some hard evidence to support it.

Earlier in this thread I requested hard data from anybody that would dispute Williams' thesis. So far nobody has presented any.

Until they do, I figure my opinion and Walter Williams' opinion is as good as anybody else's.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Hell, my alma mater, UT Austin, has the most conservative board of directors you would ever believe. Big business types, every one. Yet our profs are still a majority of liberals. Why?

I think the example we're arguing about here gives an indication of why, which you hinted about already.

Note that among the courses Williams ridicules in his opinion piece are courses on, gasp, "Rock and Roll" and "Hip-Hop: Beats, Rhyme and Culture".

Such stuff is apparently deemed so ridiculous, that just mentioning them is considered sufficient argument against today's academia.

Now of course, if you study cultural studies, or music studies, or sociology, there's pretty much no way around such kind of subjects. Popular culture is after all one of the prime drivers of modern socio-cultural development. If, for example, you aim to study the black culture of the eighties and nineties, it would be foolish to somehow ignore hip-hop. You'd have to really go out of your way to avoid it. Hell, when I did a course on "Being Black in the US", we naturally had a text on hip-hop too. Of course. <shrugs>

And there's the crux. Conservatives like Williams on the one hand pen indignant indictments of the lack of conservative professors in, say, social sciences - and on the other hand, in the same breath, express contempt for those studies. Waste of time! Studying popular culture, I mean, come on!

I'd say, there you have your answer.

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Where in any place did anybody say that a study of popular culture was inappropriate? Or did you overlook what I think Williams' real objection is to the courses cited? How do you conclude he was going by the title of the course alone?

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And my challenge remains. You may have your opinion that Williams' thesis is all wet and I will respect that. But so far the only thing the loyal liberal opposition has come up with here so far is perception of their own experience and what appears to be a fervent desire for Williams (and Foxfyre) to be wrong.

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

whether or not there is liberal bias in the education system doesn't really matter, jw. if conservatives believe there is, it is up to them to turn out more conservative teachers and professors etc., than they have been.

DTOM - If your college-student son was in an engineering course being taught by a Republican professor and was subjected to 45 minute rants on the evils of the Democrats on a daily basis, would you be receptive to writing a large check when that school's fund-raiser called?

It's not about a professor's political persuasion or whether more Democrats/Republicans or liberals/conservatives are teaching. Any good teacher will teach the SUBJECT. You would expect your tuition dollars going to a public college or university to yield exposure to more than just the bias the professor brings to class.

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frankly, the idea of a liberally biased ed system baffles me. when i was in school it was the liberal teachers that were absolutely in the minority. and usually found only in the arts or humanities or whatever. but that was a long time ago ( ).

Again, a professor's political bias should not enter into their teaching agenda. If you try hard enough, you can find plenty of examples of students being subjected to an instructor's bias for which there is absolutely no rational explanation.

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i will say that in my coworkers over the last 15 years, the young people that grew up during the reagan administration are more inclined to go for the cash type jobs than the essential, yet lower paying jobs like educator.

don't know if it's due to reagan's influenece or the basic shallowness of the '80s.

I know of at least one case of a conservative professor being blackballed for tenure due to his political views. None of my friends opted for teaching careers, but I don't consider them shallow. Again, DTOM, it's not about how many liberals are working in academia, but rather the bias they bring to their chosen profession.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Where in any place did anybody say that a study of popular culture was inappropriate?

I was, quite explicitly and specifically, referring to the assumption in Williams' piece that such topics as "Rock and Roll", "Hip-Hop: Beats, Rhyme and Culture" and "History of Electronic Dance Music" are so ridiculous a subject for a university course that even just mentioning them to the reader should be enough to discredit the supposed forces behind them.

Foxfyre wrote:

How do you conclude he was going by the title of the course alone?

Where does he propose anything else, whatsoever, about these courses?

It is hypothetically possible he knows something else, anything else, whatsoever, about them - but apparently nothing interesting enough to share with us or bother substantiating his allegation with ...

Do you know something we don't? Except that, you know, you personally usually agree with Williams and thus are apparently prepared to take his word for it all?

Foxfyre wrote:

The thesis is that U.S. college campuses are tilted way to the left to the detriment of the students and a good education. I believe I know Walter Williams' research well enough that he knows pretty damn well what was in those courses before he put them in his essay.

Wait a sec.

Williams doesn't present any kind of evidence of any kind of research he's done about these courses he brings up, whatsoever.

Furthermore, he doesn't even propose an argument on how or why these courses illustrate the "strong leftist bias" he references. All he does is mention their names - and conclude that their mere existence shows what the "strong leftist bias" leads to. That's all.

You apparently can't find any kind of evidence of a "strong leftist bias" in these courses' content or motivation or origin either. Or argue why what we found so far would showcase such a "strong leftist bias".

So you're saying - you can't find any evidence on this; Williams doesn't give any evidence; he doesnt even actually propose any argument on how or why; and you can't, retrieving the actual information out there about the example he uses, deduce how it might have proven his point; but he says it does, and that should be enough?

Fox, you are the poster girl of what I wrote about in that other thread. You make my point quite colourfully.

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Now I happen to agree with Williams based on my own recent experience with academia, the experience my children have had with academia--one has taught college courses herself--and the general consensus among most of my friends and relatives who are part of academia as we speak.
That is my opinion.

You may hold a different opinion and may have some hard evidence to support it.

It's pretty hard to prove a negative. To show that the courses currently taught at universities do NOT reflect or instill a strong leftist bias.

You made the allegation that they do, so I'd say it's up to you to propose the evidence.

Other commentators simply asserting, like you, that they do does not necessarily constitute evidence.

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JustWonders wrote:

DTOM - If your college-student son was in an engineering course being taught by a Republican professor and was subjected to 45 minute rants on the evils of the Democrats on a daily basis, would you be receptive to writing a large check when that school's fund-raiser called?

And the evidence of this occurring on a systematic scale is where in this thread?

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Foxfyre wrote:

Good winds JW? Please tell me they are good winds.

There's plenty going on, Fox. This site lists a few of the reforms that are being worked on:

http://usconservatives.about.com/od/education/

Also, I just read an interesting article here:

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/12/14/41be81fdb4484

And...DUDE...just for pure fun (and to lighten things up a bit)...I found this rather cool research:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/12/08/dude.study.ap/index.html

Laughing

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