Diversity of Everything but Thought

I don't think anybody said that political bias hasn't existed in previous times, and I bet I started school before you did, DTOM Smile

I spent the first 10 years of school in a rural Bible belt, ultra-conservative little town and the last two years of highschool in Santa Fe which I think was then and still is the most liberal place in the Southwest. My undergraduate higher education was in a small rural redneck Bible community complete with a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn, rigid blue laws, and in the middle of a bone dry county. Nevertheless we had a marvelous mixture of conservative and liberal professors and were exposed to just about everything. One of the most praised pieces I wrote for the college paper was covering a Russian communist who was invited to lecture--his lecture was very well attended too.
I was pretty liberal myself in those days and did not feel the least bit coerced or intimidated by any of my quite conservative professors nor do I think my more conservative classmates were bothered by the really liberal types in the art, music, and sociology departments.

That's the way I want it to be now for me, my kids, my granddaughter--a good mixture of all and exposure to all ideologies, and instruction on critical thinking about everything. One thing that was not tolerated at any school I ever attended in those days--knee jerk responses were viewed very negatively. When we came up with our opinion, we jolly well better have thought about how we arrived at it.

I remain convinced that the preponderance of evidence we have so far suggests that students in public universities today are not getting that kind of education.

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If that is true foxfrye, how do you account for the preponderance amount of opinions from both the right and the left that people in this country have?

How do you account for the succeses of both the right and the left in their acedemic studies?

There are a lot of conservatives that are sitting in their CEO offices today that once went to a university and apparently passed notwithstanding the "preponderance of evidence we have so far suggests that students in public universities today are not getting that kind of education."

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Foxfyre wrote:

The thesis however, is that it has become excessively difficult for students to find public universities that do not tilt excessively left and where liberal ideology is not being excessively pushed to the exclusion of conservative thought.

Foxfyre wrote:

The thesis is whether complete education is possible on an excessively liberal publically funded institution of higher learner if such do in fact exist.

I'm going to hope, sincerely, that you can see that these are two different theses. And then I'm going to hope that you understand that your reason for changing the target was that you realized that you couldn't support the first.

And then I'm going to call it a day.

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I account for that because most of our education happens off the college campuses Revel. At least mine certainly has. The only reason this is a problem at all was delineated by Walter Williams' piece that universities are failing to adequately educate these days as is evidenced by the increasing prevalence of 'bird courses' just so they can get a sufficient number of students to graduation. He blames the excessive leftist tilt on college campuses for this. I don't know if he's right, but so far nobody has been able to say how he is wrong.

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Freeduck writes

Quote:

I'm going to hope, sincerely, that you can see that these are two different theses. And then I'm going to hope that you understand that your reason for changing the target was that you realized that you couldn't support the first.

No, sorry friend. I don't see that these are two different thesis. The first point was the thrust of the piece that started the thread--liberalism has taken over public universities. The second was Walter Williams piece that uses that information, supported by hard data, to develop an opinion that education is suffering as a result of it. I think both propositions are quite well reasoned and supported for a thesis that modern liberalism, to the exclusion of all other ideologies, results in crappy education. I think they make a good case however much some do not wish to agree with that.

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Well I guess that sums it all up.

The thesis, or theses, or whatever the crux of your constantly morphing argument is, belongs to you and so the burden of proof is on you. It is enough that many on this thread have shown, over and over again and in painful detail that you haven't proven it.

But I realize that it is something that you won't let go, no matter what evidence is put forward. You said yourself that education happens in many places other than universities, and that it is apparently possible to get a complete and satisfactory higher education in this country. So you've as much as conceded that there isn't a problem worthy of action.

I'd like to say THE END, here, but I know that you will circle back to some previously argued point, rephrase it, and carry on like a good soldier.

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well now hold on here a minute revel, I think foxfyre has a good point here. I know that a few years ago in Colorado there were some concerned conservatives who thought there were just too many liberals teaching at one of the state universities and they set out to remedy the situation but first, they had to come up with verifiable facts to prove their point. Well, they went right down to the county court house and demanded the voting records for all the professors at the university and were stunned YES stunned to find out that how someone has voted is not a public (or even a private) document. They were undaunted and proceeded in their mission and did acquire the voter resistration records, you know the party affiliation records and lo and behold they discovered that there were some registered democrats, some registered republicans, a few registered Greens/ Libertarians and a couple of American Nazi party members but damnit all they found was that the vast majority were registered independents. But like I said before, they were on a mission so they bought themselves a camera (digital of course) and came up with a list of defining characteristics of "liberals" that had to do with shoe wear. Yes they discovered they could document ones political tendencies by the types and colours of shoes worn by the suspect professors. The conservative profs tended towards brown lace-up broad-toe and wing-tips where the commie pinko liberals more often wore black slipons, sandals (one was know to wear black/white golf shoes while in his office between classes) anyway know they needed verifiable documentation for their quest, they photographed and catalogued the shoewear of all know profs, made a list and checked it twice. YES they had proof that their was a preponderance of liberals teaching at the Univ and insisted that all furture hiring be based on a showwear litums test.

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It's my thread Freeduck and I figure people should be able to post whatever they wish here within the limits of TOSS and if you are tired of the discussion, then by all means don't post any more. It is possible some still have some observations or comments they wish to make. And I won't accept that the evidence presented so far does not come down on the side of a problem of inadequate education in the schools including all the components of that expressed so far.

If you believe there is no problem, then great. So far as I know, there is no requirement that it concern you. I think there is a problem and I would like to be a part of the solution if I can. And as far as my restating my opinion, stop saying I haven't proved it--I actually don't have to prove an opinion you know--and I'll shut up.

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If it's a thesis, then you have to prove it. If it's your opinion, then you don't. Stick to one or the other, and I'll shut up.

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Well I'm very sorry I didn't phrase it to suit you Freeduck. It wasn't my thesis, but I did expand on the first piece with Williams piece which most people can understand I think. The writers presented the thesis; I offered it as a discussion topic that was of interest to me. I submit that it is my opinion that the writers make an excellent case. I offered any who choose to do so to rebut the evidence the writers present and so far nobody has other than with opinion expressed by those who just don't want to accept it.

And that's my story now, it has been my story all along, and I'm sticking to it.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I offered any who choose to do so to rebut the evidence the writers present and so far nobody has other than with opinion expressed by those who just don't want to accept it.

And that's my story now, it has been my story all along, and I'm sticking to it.

And several did rebut the writers conclusions and you refuse to accept it.

That's my story, and I'm right. Laughing

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dsylexia

I didn't know that a person's voting affliation was not a matter of public record. That does put a different light on the whole study done by this guy that foxfrye's peddling. So their behavior is what determines if a professor is a liberal?

Apparently what is going on is some kind of republican version of Jeff Foxworthy's "you must be a redneck if.." They have just substituted it with "you must be a liberal if you are a man and you wear black slip ons."

Or you must be a liberal if you believe that keeping a homosexual from marrying violates basic civil liberties based on their sexual preference.

I guess if a professor had a class do a study on it and the students had to come up with provable evidence to back up their stance that had nothing to do with any religious views but just based on the law and previous court cases and civil liberties and a student turned in a paper that said something like, "denying homsexuals to marry has nothing to do with the bible but has to do with doing with what the majority of America wants and we live in a democracy..." and a professor gave the student a failing grade because the student failed to provide provable previous cases to use as evidence then that would be proof of a professior not providing a well balanced view or whatever and proof that the professor himself/herself "must be a liberal."

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Foxfyre wrote:

It's my thread Freeduck and I figure people should be able to post whatever they wish here within the limits of TOSS and if you are tired of the discussion, then by all means don't post any more. It is possible some still have some observations or comments they wish to make. And I won't accept that the evidence presented so far does not come down on the side of a problem of inadequate education in the schools including all the components of that expressed so far.

If you believe there is no problem, then great. So far as I know, there is no requirement that it concern you. I think there is a problem and I would like to be a part of the solution if I can. And as far as my restating my opinion, stop saying I haven't proved it--I actually don't have to prove an opinion you know--and I'll shut up.

Ok, it is your opinion that the study done by that guy is right, it is mine and others that is it not right.

What solution to the problem as you see it would you want to be a part of?

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Did I miss the post showing the facts that disputed the opinion peice?

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Show me Freeduck. The only one who even tried was Cyclop and he only challenged Williams' list of 'bird courses' and the rebuttal he came up with was laced with faulty facts. One other post--not Dys's--came up with some data that showed a lot of professors are registered independents but otherwise strongly supported the case for liberal bias. So, what we're left with are the A2K liberals saying they just don't believe it's a problem and the A2K conservatives saying there is plenty of evidence that there is.

And I suspect this discussion will either ocntinue or it won't. But I really really see no point in repetitious circular arguments, so why don't we wait until somebody offers something new here to chew on?

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Revel asks

Quote:

What solution to the problem as you see it would you want to be a part of?

I already answered Lola on that question Revel. Did you miss it? I would like to think that a college degree in the United States would stand for the finest education that can be obtained anywhere. I will throw my support toward that end whenever I am given opportunity to do so.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Revel asks

Quote:
What solution to the problem as you see it would you want to be a part of?

I already answered Lola on that question Revel. Did you miss it? I would like to think that a college degree in the United States would stand for the finest education that can be obtained anywhere. I will throw my support toward that end whenever I am given opportunity to do so.

I suppose I did miss it. Would you mind repeating it?

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I just did and you quoted it. So that should be that.

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revel said;

Quote:

I didn't know that a person's voting affliation was not a matter of public record. That does put a different light on the whole study done by this guy that foxfrye's peddling. So their behavior is what determines if a professor is a liberal?

now damnit revel , thats not what I said, what I said was actual voting records are not public but voter registration/affiliation is public record. If you continue putting out these ridiculous hypotheses without corresponding hippopotamuses, I will flame you. I mean it!

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Well I guess I am just too thick headed or something.

I don't see how saying that you believe that the US should give the finest education anywhere and you will throw your support toward that ends clarifies with details how you would fix the problem of liberal professors in colleges. I mean what would you support or not support in such a move that tries to expel this monstrous liberal influence that colleges have on people seeking a higher education? How would they go about such a thing. Would college professors be censored in what subjects they teach or the way they teach or how they grade or would a litmus test be handed out to be answered before a college professor is hired? Who would be in charge of deciding what is fair and what leans too far politically and how can we trust those people any more than anyone to not be politically motivated?

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