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Diversity of Everything but Thought

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2004 09:15 pm
Dys wrote
Quote:
Please point out the verifiable facts, I did read each and every word and found none other than more opinions stated by the author. For someone that continues to demand facts over opinions I find this to be transparently lacking your rigorous criteria expected of others.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 08:24 am
dyslexia wrote:
I really enjoy reading anecdotal opinion pieces from posters who decry the dearth of factual evidence from others. Just recently I got a letter from this guy I once knew who saw or heard about (he doeesn't remember which) a republican who had read a book about civil rights , so I can present an informed opinion that there are republicans who can read and are interested in the issue of civil rights. On the other hand, I also knew a guy I believed to be a liberal who once told me he had read Marx (Das Kapital), proving beyond a doubt that liberals are all communists. I decry anyone to show me proof that republicans are not racists and liberals are not communists. My next door neighbor is a school teacher and a member of the teachers union which proves that teachers are really anarchists intent on leading innocent children down the primrose path to insurrection.


Cool
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 10:28 am
Methinks those whom I annoy, and their numbers seems to be legion, will quite destroy their own objectivity and credibility just to take a potshot at me. But then I have long thought that to be the most glaring weakness of liberalism: the tendency to attack the person and the manner in which he/she expresses a point of view rather than counter that point of view with any reasonable counter argument. And the other liberals cheer on the one taking the potshots.

And that my friends, in my never to be considered humble opinion, is precisely why conservative students have such a tough time with a predominantly liberal staff on college campuses and why educate suffers as a result of it.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 10:40 am
<snort>

I guess it's never pleasant to have one's argument picked apart. I imagine that's how those conservative students feel as well. But exposing the fallacies and poor logic in someone else's argument is not the same thing as taking pot shots at the person.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 10:41 am
(I think I'm just gonna go around the board saying "Amen" today.) (Can heathens say "Amen"? It carries a little more weight than "darn tootin'"...)
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 10:45 am
It's like a "Pots and kettles" serenade!

"But, Maa-ah! HE started it! Waaa-aaah!" Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:30 am
Freeduck writes
Quote:
I guess it's never pleasant to have one's argument picked apart. I imagine that's how those conservative students feel as well. But exposing the fallacies and poor logic in someone else's argument is not the same thing as taking pot shots at the person.


I don't recall that I've ever accused somebody attempting or succeeding in showing the fallacies or poor logic in my argument of taking a potshot at me. My objection is with those who attack me and/or my opinion ias being wrong, illogical (list several dozen other uncomplimentary adjectives here) without offering any accurate or logical argument of their own.

I have seen (or have heard testimony) of liberal professors who do the same thing to their conservative students. Rather than teaching--explaining how a thesis is in error and why--they belittle or berate the student for his conservative insight and/or opinion. It is of little consequence how A2K members treat me. When it is no longer enjoyable here, I can simply delete the link from my favorites list and find other ways to spend my time.

It is of far more consequence when it happens in the university setting.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:34 am
I can't complain of someone feeling victimized at every turn since that is a weakness of my own.

However, what I thought was "cool" (I never would really say such a word out loud..) about dyslexia argument was not just because it picked on foxfrye's argument and for no other reason. But because it pointed out (pretty original in style I though which is why I thought it was neat) the whole fallacy of foxfrye's argument in the first place of this particular argument.

That is to say that because an incident or two occurs and someone writes about it or talks about it does not mean that there is enough of a pattern of something to make it the norm.

Someone was going on and on about this one person who got a bad grade and was arrested and all that because of his conservative views that he was trying to put in the form of a play or something. Just because that happened is not proof that there is a "liberal conspiracy" to shut out conservative thought. CI brought up instances where that was not the case and I am sure that there are others.

I agree with whoever it was that said that a lot of people that are liberal inclined tend to more academic than economic and that is why you find more liberals who happen to be professors and teachers, but that is not always the case.

In point of fact I can bring up some instances myself of some incidents that my daughter who happens to be liberal in her politics and thoughts and is pretty vocal about it had with some of her teachers and was treated to some pretty unfair treatment because of it. But I don't think that means that the whole school was in on it or anything like that and neither did she.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:40 am
Read Mike Adams column. He explains the liberal college experience rather regularly.

here is a link
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:49 am
Well it would take a whole lot more than something somebody said here on A2K to make me feel victimized. After all, I am conservative, and victimization is not a common conservative trait. There have been times that the attacks became so viscious and/or pervasive that it just wasn't fun and I did withdraw and found something else to do for awhile.

My only quarrel with Dys's take on it is that he was absolutely 100% wrong in his take on it, which I think I demonstrated. I think he was trying to take me down probably because he objected to my generic chastising of Cyclop and others who had been increasingly insulting for some time. Nobody seems to mind much when conservatives are insulted here on A2K but are highly offended if a liberal is insulted. And that's okay. I've learned to live with it and have stopped objecting much when I am personally insulted (mostly to keep Craven from accusing me of playing the victim. Smile)

Anecdotal evidence is interesting and everybody uses it. So long as it is kept in perspective, that is fine. I use anecdotal evidence and I try to remember to indicate that I don't use it for proof of anything. At best anecdotal evidence is useful to illustrate that a) a thesis might be true or b) there are exceptions to just about anything.

Revel qualified her instance of anecdotal evidence making it clear she did not consider that indicative of the entire school. Some others, however, cite their own experience as absolute proof a thesis is patently wrong. In my view that is an illogical use of anecdotal evidence.

Dys incorrectly characterized Walter Williams' piece as anecdotal evidence and criticized me for using it. It was, however, an opinion piece with reasoning based on a lot of data that in no way was anecdotal.

And if the data is correct--and there is an awful lot of it out there that suggests it most likely is--then the liberal ideology is prevalent on college campuses and conservative students may be disadvantaged or especially challenged as a result of it.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 12:26 pm
I would just like to sum up my thoughts on this whole thing. I believe you when you say, and others report, that more Democrats are college professors than Republicans are. I even believe that some of those professors teach their ideology in the classroom. But there are so many colleges, so many professors, and so many subjects offered that I just don't see that this is a big enough problem to warrant action (other than individual action) -- especially not the kind that is suggested in the article you posted earlier. The problem with your man's argument and with many of your own arguments is that he states one fact (ratio of Republicans to Democrats working in universities) and then proceeds to extrapolate this to mean that universities are flooded with liberal idealism. Needless to say, it's not exactly evident.

As for anecdotal evidence, every single one of these stories about this teacher saying he doesn't like republicans or that student getting an F on his paper is anecdotal evidence. And the whole case for there being a great infection of liberal idealism on college campuses is built on this evidence.

I think that if a young Democrat or Republican has his/her ideas challenged in college that is generally a good thing as there are very few 18-22 year olds who have well thought out political positions in the first place and they might as well explore why they think what they think. That's if they actually have any political persuasion at all. Tough nuts if it isn't done in a sweet and kind and respectful way. College is not a picnic.

And all due respect, fox, your whole point is one to illustrate victimization.

This statement:
Quote:
And if the data is correct--and there is an awful lot of it out there that suggests it most likely is--then the liberal ideology is prevalent on college campuses and conservative students may be disadvantaged or especially challenged as a result of it.
kind of shows that.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 12:31 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
I would just like to sum up my thoughts on this whole thing. I believe you when you say, and others report, that more Democrats are college professors than Republicans are. I even believe that some of those professors teach their ideology in the classroom. But there are so many colleges, so many professors, and so many subjects offered that I just don't see that this is a big enough problem to warrant action (other than individual action) -- especially not the kind that is suggested in the article you posted earlier. The problem with your man's argument and with many of your own arguments is that he states one fact (ratio of Republicans to Democrats working in universities) and then proceeds to extrapolate this to mean that universities are flooded with liberal idealism. Needless to say, it's not exactly evident.

As for anecdotal evidence, every single one of these stories about this teacher saying he doesn't like republicans or that student getting an F on his paper is anecdotal evidence. And the whole case for there being a great infection of liberal idealism on college campuses is built on this evidence.

I think that if a young Democrat or Republican has his/her ideas challenged in college that is generally a good thing as there are very few 18-22 year olds who have well thought out political positions in the first place and they might as well explore why they think what they think. That's if they actually have any political persuasion at all. Tough nuts if it isn't done in a sweet and kind and respectful way. College is not a picnic.

And all due respect, fox, your whole point is one to illustrate victimization.

This statement:
Quote:
And if the data is correct--and there is an awful lot of it out there that suggests it most likely is--then the liberal ideology is prevalent on college campuses and conservative students may be disadvantaged or especially challenged as a result of it.
kind of shows that.


READ THIS
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 12:32 pm
So we have a paradox don't we? At what point does a collection of anecdotal evidences create a consensus that there is a problem? How many instances does it take to see that a problem is not an incidental or isolated issue?

And must we presume victimization because a problem exists? I define a victim as somebody who is helpless to make his/her own choices or effect his/her own destiny. I would not characterize a conservative college student that way. On the other hand, if the environment in an educational institution is hindering a good education, then the problem should be addressed.

Is the problem sufficiently pervasive to warrant attention? I honestly don't know as my own experience and study on the matter is not extensive at this time. But so far, the proponderance of evidence presented comes down on the side of there being a problem. Nobody has yet presented any data or evidence of any kind, other than incidental anecdotal experience, to suggest otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 12:33 pm
Oooh, the poor "Conservatives" who deplore how others seem to exploit "Victimization syndrome" don't seem to have any trouble exploiting the syndrome for their own personal advantage.

It's called "Hypocrisy", and is particularly savored by adherents of Lush BLimpbaugh, the insufferable gasbag.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 12:37 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
On the other hand, if the environment in an educational institution is hindering a good education, then the problem should be addressed.



Is there really evidence to support this?

I didn't read that yet McG, so if there is something there don't scold me yet.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 12:38 pm
All the 'anecdotal evidence', studies, data, and opinion expressed as 'evidence' in this thread so far does seem to support this. I'm still waiting for any credible rebuttal other than from people who don't want to believe the evidence presented.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 12:44 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
All the 'anecdotal evidence', studies, data, and opinion expressed as 'evidence' in this thread so far does seem to support this. I'm still waiting for any credible rebuttal other than from people who don't want to believe the evidence presented.


Is there another study besides the one that says that there are more Democrats in academia than there are Republicans? And even given the anecdotal evidence, is there evidence that the ability of those students to get a good education was hampered? A typical college education takes four years. Most people have to suffer through at least one complete jackass of a professor during that time. But most of us would agree that that's part of college.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 12:48 pm
BTW, McG, I read that column. More of the same. A completely one-sided letter to a professor who, according to the letter writer, is injecting his beliefs into the curriculum. I'll grant you that some of those things are arguable, but is there another side to that story? What was the subject of the class? What were the professors other assignments like? Where's the link to the professor's web page that has all this stuff? Is requiring someone to write a paper from a position he doesn't believe in harmful to or beneficial to his education? Inquiring minds want to know.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 12:51 pm
Did you read both of Walter Williams most recent articles on education FreeDuck? He cites a lot of evidentiary studies. I know from my own experience that I have 'revised' my own analysis of a situation to fit the particular ideology of a professor. So have my kids. My college-professor friends and relatives tell me it is generally best to go with the flow and keep your mouth shut if you personally swim against the current. This seems to me to be more pervasive than just the now and then jackass of a professor.

Are liberal professors the only jackasses? Of course not. But wouldn't it make for a more complete education if you had a more diverse mixture of jackasses?

I'm still waiting, however, for any data from anybody to counter that the rather limited evidence presented here is not on target.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 12:52 pm
Mr. Adams ansers all those questions and more in subsequent articles. You should read through them as they are quite eye-opening.
0 Replies
 
 

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